Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

Adding 5% hp to the new cars makes a lot more sence. Most of the older cars that are built right and have had someone work on them can already run a second under. Now if you take 5% hp off those combo's there just going to hit the AHFS min more often and be back to the old hp ratings before you know it. Take my car for an example. In real good air I think I can run 120 under. But I know the new Mustangs in my class in the same air can go between 150 and 160 under. The newer cars are the ones that are not factored right why would you want to change the older cars? Put the HP where it belongs. Besides maybe the added weight to these cars will help the ones that are having problems hooking up. Barry

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

Having some knowledge of what the manufacturers are thinking, I think the 5 off would have a better chance of getting done. Having some knowledge of what NHRA is thinking, I think 5 off has a better chance. However, nothing is impossible. Maybe 10 off pre 08's, which would not be acceptable to the manufaturers to add 10 to the new cars. If NHRA truly has an interest, I think there could be negotiations. If they don't, we are wasting a lot of good thoughts or bad thoughts, depending on your position. As for as getting lighter and getting hit by the AHFS system, that is exactly why I don't like the present system. A system of averages smooths out the system.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

I can see combining Stick Cars W/ Auto's.

I did this research on Stock Elim. Only
The 4 races i'm about to list only had a total of 288 Total Cars.
35 Stick Cars & 253 Were Automatics.

Englishtown, Bristol, Epping & Norwalk. 7, 10, 11 & 7 respectfully.

The Seat Belt Rule should be changed to 3 years & inspected after 3 to see
if you can use them for another year.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

It seems pretty consistent at around 14%.
As far as seat belts, while I'm for longer inspection periods, I see others point; it's an SFI issue and NHRA won't change. And all in all, seat belts is a trivial issue in the grand scheme of things NHRA.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

Jeff, I don't read posts that long.

At first I thought it was another one from Dan. LOL

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

X2 on Combining Sticks and Autos.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

I think it is great that NHRA is asking for feedback .

That being said,I don't think they should consider suggestions from people that do NOT compete at their events with an actual vehicle.

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Oh, Dennis, at 3770 lbs you could still run about 1.5 under. LOL

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

The seat belt issue to me is that, if you take Racer A that makes 7-8 Div's & just as many
or if not more Nationals compared to Racer B that makes 3-4 Div & 3-4 National meets
the seat belt is not getting used as much.

That's why i say inspect them after 3 years, still good, keep using them.

My .03 cents

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

If you have a Competition Number, they should consider your input.

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Jeff also no weight breaks for autos. With the technology today there just as fast as a stick.

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Deuces,
I addressed the disparity of the indexes and the HP between stick / auto classes. Should be no disparity in my opinion.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

I'm stick all the way,but there is some problems with combining sticks & autos.

The lower you go in the classes the biggger the performance gap getsJ or K on down is where the differences really start to show is A-B stick could be a little slower in stock than auto-then C through J or K you are correct they run pretty close in stock,SS is now different deal than few years ago,since clutchless trans have been allowed,I will give same answer I use to tell friends that tried to tell me I could go faster w/glide than my 5 spd.,that was if a glide was so fast why did'nt you see any pro stocks w/ glide?
and why did you get 250 lbs weight reduction in modified/comp car w/auto?

I don't think you can run a auto SS car against a clutchless SS car heads up and it be a even match,unless the stick guy's car is off in left field and the auto is perfectly setup.

I don't think it makes much sense to combine sticks and autos in stk. and SS when they just seperated them in comp a few years ago,if they can't run combined in comp how can you expect it to work in stk and SS?

Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

I couldn't but I'm not saying it couldn't be done with a 5.7, lol.

Dennis Breeden

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

Just got my DragStats yesterday. Fastest SS/JA car listed is one of those. Div 4 car. It's a Stocker, 9" tires, foot brake, leaves REAL soft, yet runs over 108 in the 1/8th, and high 130s in the 1/4. If I ever have to race it I'm going to help you get some hp. LOL

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

Comparing Stock or Super Stock to Comp is like comparing apples to zucchini's. Not even the same book except they all have four wheels and tires.
I'd suggest you subscribe to Nitro Joe's stat's for only $50 per year. It might broaden your thinking on the subject. The SS stick cars are typically considerably slower than their auto trans counterparts.
Then you have the difference in indexes. Use SS/J vs. SS/JA as an example. The index for SS/J is 10.80. The index for SS/JA is 11:00. Right off the bat the SS/JA car has a two-tenths advantage.
Rob Youngblood runs SS/J with a 350 'Vette and Don Little runs SS/JA with a 383 Challenger. They both are rated the same HP and they typically run about the same ET when they are at the same event together. Don will qualify in the top 5, Rob will qualify in the 15-20 position. Same ET. Same weight. Probably even the same HP. But Don gets a higher position on the ladder. Does this seem rational?

Combine sticks and autos and you'll see half the eliminator field which will be more manageable in time for the event. You'll see more heads up which will be more exciting for the fans. Might even get some TV time because really, does anybody like watching singles or combo races at a National event?

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Jeff, I think you forgot about GT classes in SS, if someone doesn`t want to run heads up they can find 3 other classes. Why is it the stick racer that want to combine sticks and auto? Tom

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NHRA combined the sticks and auto in SS/AH, the fastest cars are the sticks. The record is now held by an auto, but if Charlie decides he wants the record back, he would do it with the stick.

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Mike Taylor is absolutely correct.
The lower classes it's not even close. I own a really fast ss/na or ma car and I know of a couple cars I can't get within a couple tenths of on the same day same track. I'm not talking about a car that can go .80 under. It can go 1.1-1.2 under in N just about at will. Then lets talk about the 283 Chevy II. The stick is also quicker then the auto or how about Kip Martins car. I don't know of any ss/la that can hold a candle to that car. In many cases yes they are fairly close. But the lower the power and heavier the weight the stick has a huge advantage. Some would may say well just put a stick in the car. Well not all cars were built with that option either.

Rick

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

If you really want to cut the number of classes and make it actually count, in Stock, get rid of the 1/2 pound weight breaks at the top, and roll the FWD cars into the regular classes. That will create a lot more heads up races and cut down on a lot more solo passes than combining sticks and automatics will.

Of course, there will be much moaning, wailing, gnashing of teeth, etc, especially from the FWD people.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

How will it cut down on solo passes?

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For class? Think about it.

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After looking at the NHRA Stock Index's here's what i found:

AAA/S, AA/S, BB, & CC both Stick & Auto Have Same Index.

A-F stick -auto Only .05 difference.

G stick -auto .10 difference

H stick-auto .15 difference

I, J, & K .10 difference

L & M 0 difference

N & O .05 difference

P, Q & R .10 .15 .10 difference

T 0 difference

U, V & W .20 .25 .25 difference

So, in my opinion, looks like you can combine All of the Higher Class Cars up until F.
Of Course The Stick Cars Have To Add A Few Pounds.
G thru K you can keep Stick & Auto Seperate Or Make The Stick Cars Add A Few
More Pounds.
From L- T some are the same index & some are .05- .10 different.
And Last But Not Least: U, V & W can't be combined because of the big difference.

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Take my Class (DF/S) for example and compare it to T/SA
DF/S 19 pound class; 15.60 Index (Nat'l record was 14.72)

T/SA 19 pound class; 14.40 Index

Looks pretty good (for the real T/SA cars)...

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

Can you tell i'm bored.

Looking at Nitro Joe's 2012 Stats, Here's another observation:

Stock Elim. Only: Total Cars: 1,577

AAA thru E: 760 Cars
F thru E/FS: 797 Cars

How 'bout: Stock: AAA-E stick or auto same index
JR. Stock: F - E/FS 1 lb. wt. breaks

Maybe Only Run Class Elim. At Indy.

Let the Fireworks Begin.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

The FWD stick and auto classes are already combined . Took 3 hits and weight added before my auto FWD was able to compete with the stick FWD car . In my case the index is 17.45 25 lbs and 16.65 24 lbs.for the RWD car. 87 lbs less weight will not pick me up 8 tenths to compete with the RWD cars. There wil be a big difference in the lower class cars if combined.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

never mind...

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Another good proposal. One way or the other, the number of classes needs to be reduced while increasing the level of competition. If nobody believes an increase in heads-up competition is bad, they have never watched any of the drag race TV shows. Nobody wants to watch a staggered race.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

As in the past, no one suggested rolling the FWD cars in without adjusting their factors.

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For the love of every thing that class racing is, why would you ever suggest that?

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

When they combined the FWD classes, everbody said it was to cut down the # of stock classes . The FWD classes went from 10 down to 5 . The total of stock classes was 27 after they were combined, stick and auto. 2013 , now we have 32 NHRA stock classes. Don't need to roll the FWD classes in with the RWD just to cut the # of classes down. We already paid our dues in helping NHRA reducing the # of classes. The 100lbs that were added to the FWD stick cars , did not even get the auto cars close to running with the stick cars in these classes. No way you can refactor the FWD cars fairly to compete with the RWD cars.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

So, FWD cars are not subject to the same rules of math and laws of physics as RWD cars?

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Well, as a matter of fact, they're not! It's a FWD,RWD thing.
When NHRA redid the FWD thing, I proposed giving the FWD cars a 3lb. break and rolling them into the RWD classes. The numbers worked but the problem became not having low enough weight breaks to merge them in. It only worked for the higher classed FWD stuff. The lower classed FWD stuff(I can say that) couldn't get light enough to fit the existing RWD classes.
I don't have a problem with consolidating some classes but I have to agree with Ron in re. to the FWD stuff, they've paid their dues already.

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If you cut the weight breaks to 1 pound in the upper classes, you'll have room to add a couple of lower classes, and still cut the total number of classes.

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I agree with you but as I don't have a dog in this fight, I'll let the upper classed racers figure this one out for themselves.

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It's just a suggestion, as an alternative that might be easier than merging sticks and automatics.

It would make it more difficult for us to avoid the new cars with our older car, however, it would also make it more difficult for the new cars to avoid each other. That would make the AHFS work better. But then, so would running class at every event (including LODRS events). Which we could do by running it as part of qualifying. One qualifying shot, then class, so everyone gets a shot in each lane.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

Alan
I enjoy racing class, don't get me wrong, but in all honesty, does anyone win money
for a class win ??? I guess it's just a prestige thing.

Now let's take your class G/S. More then likely your first rd. is your Trophy Run.
How many rounds was the most you ran in class ?? And at what race was it ??

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

I'm not running G/S anymore. When I was, there were three cars within 100 miles or so, and it was good racing, despite both of them being faster than I was, by a considerable margin. The other two are still here. We sold the G/S car because of the economy at the time, and to focus on one car. We often wish we had not.

If you're worried about money, you're in the wrong area of drag racing, probably the worst possible area of drag racing to be concerned about winning money. But class racing is all about running for class. If it isn't, then why bother at all? It's way too much money to spend on a "bracket car". I'm in the middle of a new engine for SS/EA. If I didn't care about class, I sure as Hell wouldn't even consider doing the things I'm doing, or spending this kind of money to run the ET and MPH we want to run. For the A/SA car or the SS/EA car, I could go a second faster for 1/2 the money if we weren't running class cars. I'd have 1/4 the work load. Running Stock and Super Stock, for me at least, is about striving to go fast within the rules, and running class or heads up and doing well is a huge part of the reward. Despite struggling a lot recently. Winning the regular eliminations is a great thing, too. But if we focused on pure bracket racing, I'm sure we could do well at that. For less money, and probably win a fair amount of money.

Even considering purse or prize money in class racing is absurd. You can't possibly hope to win enough for it to matter. Between the entry fees and fuel to go to a race, if you won, you might make $500 or so. Before you paid for everything else. You can barely hope to not lose too much money.

If you're racing Stock or Super Stock to win money, your name better be Bertozzi, Biondo, Rampy, or Fletcher. Knowing all four real well, we know we ain't them. Yeah, there are other good racers besides them.

The best possible thing for Stock and Super Stock would be to run class at every event. Running class was the primary reason for the classes to begin with. We've strayed too far from the roots.

Re: Submit 2014 Rule Change Requests
 

Alan
All of your points are valid.
And Yes i remember when winning class got you into Sunday's Elim's.
Then, a few years later they took Class Winners & maybe what 16 cars
that qualified under the index. So they would have a total of 48 or 64 cars
for the Eliminator.

I ran SS back in the mid 70's & it was a beautiful thing to Win your class.

Your prob 100% correct, that NHRA got away from there roots of class racing.

Sure, your not going to make tons of money racing S/SS unless like the names
you'd mention, but some of those guys Race For A Living & have Big Sponsors.

Today's Class Win should at least give you free oil or even a free candy bar, along
with your Wally.

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Again, if you're looking for money, or hoping to get NHRA to share the wealth, forget it.

You're not going to make ANY money class racing. We had a good year in 2010, and we did not win enough money to talk about.

Yes, it would be nice if winning class got you something. And if you deal with the right people and have the right parts on your car, it will. But NHRA has not increased the payout for eliminations in years. To think they're going to pay for class, or to think class should not be contested if they won't, means you may be playing in a class you apparently don't want to be in.