Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

I have not run an injected car. I have seen the results of the original "weak factoring" job done from NHRA in the past for these cars. Some thought probably of getting some new blood in the racing. It worked as many went to the new cars for various reasons.
I have learned alot about the improvements from this post and knowing how it works in SS too. Injected 305 puts out the similar HP to carb models without expensive manifolds.
Seems with all these comments the discussion should move to the one thing which needs to be done to protect "everyone" with any combination who runs S or SS. Tighten up the AHFS and make it more effective in all cases. That would help everyone not just the FI versus carb but the bogus untested motors no one has seen but Bob Dennis or Bob Shaw or other creative builders.
AHFS is the only current method of adjustment. Push for making it better and all the problems can be better with time..
Good discussion of this problem...

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Dick...the Olds powered/Cadillac F.I. engines that Bob Shaw and Bob Dennis are running are not bogus; they were in the books for many years. The same applies to Mark Yacavone's Mustang and Neil Smedley's Turbo Pontiacs and Buicks. Do you think because it is not a Chevy, that any other make that runs fast and under the index is bogus? It is just the fact that there are many racers that take the challenge to build cars that others are not willing to.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Evan,
Thankyou very much for your input on this thread, very well done, I'm glad you did the typing ! Now all we need is for the whiners to be able to READ and UNDERSTAND the contents, (hopefully a few times to digest it).

Grouping all of the "FI" cars together (all having the same outstanding performance) is really silly too and most FI combos will only run really well in outstanding conditions becauase of the small throttle bodies. Also worth mentioning is that most are 'batch fire' systems with a single coil, fuel injects when the valve is closed, how is that so "dominating". Yes it's possible to individually cylinder time these, but, so can a carb combo! As you stated, only mutli-pak coil systems can use the very expensive and time consuming sequential system for individual cylinder tuning.

I can't wait to hear the outcry when the newest batch of FI cars hit the track in '09.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

What Bernie just said is exactly correct. My LT-1 with it's puny throttle body ran well when it was cool out but fell off dramatically in hot weather. I changed my fuel map constantly and tried various setups and was using some feedback trying to get it better. I was able to get it more dialable and consistant but it was also slower. It was frustrating to say the least! I should have paid way more attention to the short converstion I had with Dan Fletcher a few years ago......right before he changed from a EFI powered car to a BB carbureted Camaro.......He seems to have done quite well with an old school combo.....YA THINK!

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Definition of Bogus "factored" motors : motors which have inadvertantly been overlooked when the factoring was done. 400 chevy, 350 FI chevy, 305 FI chevy are at the top of the list. I find no fault with motors FOUND in the books for years. They exist but Bogus in the sense they are in some cases very much under rated and therefore initially a Killer combination. Many very intelligent racers use this method of qualifying high on the ladder. I am not referring to motors which are paper combinations....Thats another problem...Which would also be corrected by tight AHFS.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Dave--Could't get back to you yesterday as the Nor ' Easter that hit the East Coast knocked out our power.First of all I have never intentionally raced at 200-300 LBS. heavy to slow my car down--EVER !!

As for my "Meds"--the problem if there is one is that i'm back on some of them and it clouds my thinking.

Although I'm a member of the 1000' club --I'm neither a charter member nor Alumni .

As for the" FI Police"--I have no idea who exactly "they" are--please inform me ASAP.

Happy Holidays......


Evan -- Give it up pal , you're trying very hard to educate some of these guys on FI issues and they simply don't want to learn . There are those out there who think racing an LS1 is a bowl of cherries and don't realize how hard or costly it really is. From a cost standpoint a racer could probably build 2 to 3 Chevy 350/255 hp for every one LS1 engine he builds and do it in 1/3rd the time .

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Bernie,

You don't need individual coils per cylinder to run an engine sequentially. All you need is the ability to know cam position relative to crank position. The LT1 has always been capable of running sequential, thus individual cylinder tuning

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Also, you can tune individual cylinders with the factory computer...

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

How can you guys ever think that FI cars will not domminate? Last time I was starting A fire one gallon of gas made alot bigger fire than just one half gallon and with unlimted injector size you can put in as much fuel as the pump will let you. Tranlation bigger explostion and more power. No rocket sience here just plain good sence.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Mr. Weak Forse,

I don't mean to be rude, but I seriously reccomend a trip to Borders or Barnes and Noble this holiday season. Your gale force is a weak breeze at best and I am feeling quite a bit of hot air. On your trip, pick up one of the many books on internal combustion and educate yourself, and please get a dictionary for your spelling. You have made but one correct statement so far, more gas will make more power. But it will only do so if you can supply more air and if the engine maintains the proper a/f ratio. Fuel in the internal combustion engine burns (it does not explode, Top Fuel cars explode). Furthermore, the mixture must burn rapidly and at the precise time needed to complete combustion, thus releasing heat energy from the fuel in order to get the necessary rise in cylinder pressure. This is needed to apply maximum pressure on the piston when it is about 7-14 degrees past TDC. Burning the mixture before this time (often results in detonation) or after it (rich condition with elevated EGTs) will have little to no effect on MBT (maximum brake torque). In lay terms it means more fuel doesn't mean more HP for you, EFI or otherwise!

This is one reason larger displacement engines make more power than smaller ones. They flow more air so more fuel can be burned while maintaining the proper a/f ratio. Proper a/f ratio in just about every naturally aspitated engine is about 12.7-13.3:1. You can burn more fuel with a smaller engine if you provide the airflow to match. This requires forced induction, nitrous, or any combination of larger cams, larger induction, more compression, stiffer valvesprings (for the larger cams) and/or increased rpm.

A carburetor dictates its own flow of fuel due to a pressure drop in the venturi, which draws fuel from the fuel bowl, into the boosters, thus causing it to shear of into tiny little particles (read: atomization) where it is then deliverd to the ports. Over jetting will result in a rich mixture and a loss of power, just like with EFI. I'm quite sure you could create a situation where the engine has way too much fuel with EFI in easier fashion than with a carb, but the poor drivability and loss of power would be the same.

You can throw all the fuel you want (which I recommend you try with your Hot Wheels car) at any engine, but it is likely you will see a huge loss in torque and hp, not to mention MPG, which will be a concern to racers as gas prices go up.

Lastly, put down the gasoline.

Evan

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Gale, I'm not sure where you took IC engine 101 but you must have skipped class quite often. The logic that you are using here is the common misconception about what move a piston up and down. I think it is the expansion of an ignited AIR and fuel. The addition of excessive fuel does not make HORSEPOWER.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Bo, sorry to hear about your computer problems. I've had 5 years with my FAST controller without a single issue.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

anyone want bob shaws caddy heads up... jump on in

350 cid, 3600 lbs, 3 speed, 500cfm throttle body
VS
283 cid, 4470lbs, 2 speed, 415 (littl one) cfm 4gc

yeah im screwed... but bob is a good guy

jack mccarthy

maybe bob will let me drive the caddy at the shootout in belle rose !!!

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Man, I've been getting a real education keeping up with this thread for the last couple of days. If you need a refresher course on grammar, spelling, linguistics, science, history, mathematics, and public relations you can find it all here!

Jim

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

If you guys really think FI is that easy, then I invite you to come tune with my factory PCM. It is a PITA at best.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Evan, check your PM.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Your all missing the point here............
The best thing about the fuel injection is that it is very economical (fuel efficient) when driving to the lanes and back to my pit spot after a run. I don't waste half the fuel I use to with the Q-jet combo. I'll bet I get 10 MPG's w/ it. Its especially nice when you have numerous rain delays and have to drive back and forth to the lanes 3 times for each run.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

..not to mention that when I change my oil it doesn't smell like C-11.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

hey cheech, smoke another jibba next time before you post.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

I guess Gale did'nt think about the air that's required to mix with the fuel. I could put alcohol jets in my carb and it would probably slow down about 2 secon

Greg

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

That Evan guy writes so well about race cars you'd think he'd try doing it for a living!

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

What is PM?

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Private Message... Look at the upper right of the screen. the light blue colored area with the "Welcome,...." Click on Private Messages

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

10mpg... WEAK.

I figured up that we were getting 20mpg just at the track. Between making runs and in the pits.

Hell, I got 32mpg driving the car 4 hours to the Rockingham divisional in '06. That was with the 4.11. Went 3 rounds in the combo, 3 in the race, and got 32mpg on the way home. That was also over the course of 50 or more runs in 4 days.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Lee,
I know ya love that car and I would too, best 'bang for the buck' late model, street car, muscle car out there.
When are ya gonna step up to STOCK so we can share ALL of the stories together !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stock ECU is out of the question for us fella's. Ya just gonna have to pony-up to some expensive parts to play the game, but, then we can talk on a 'level playing field'.
Seriously, congrats on your success and I'm glad you truly enjoy what we do. B

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Bernie,

I will be running STOCK in 08 with the FACTORY ECU. In fact with the capabilities of the factory unit I see no point in spending big bucks on something else.

I am also a firm believer that I could make an LS1 bird run the index with a cam and a tune in the factory computer.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

I still say build an FI car crybabies ... If you cant respect my feelings about worst redlight...then sc rew all you punks that have said build a faster car if you dont like the rules ..
Hey....go build a FI car if you dont like the rules. If you want my sympathy then even the playing field
on redlights.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

I will say I have no sympathy for you on the first redlight rule. I leave first 90% of the time, and like the rule the way it is. Pressure is put on the other driver when they feel like you are good on the tree and they see it.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

The closer to the intake valve that you mix fuel with air will always have the least turbulance, drop out, and port speed.

The control unit can make a/f adjustments in milliseconds. We are now making 5 to 8 fuel curve changes in the first 1.2 sec. on a SS style setup depending on track and air.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Then let's do away with the worst breakout..........FIRST TO BREAKOUT LOSES......

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Wow, maybe you could help me make MY ecu program better, HUH !!!!!!!!!!!!! That's OK, I think I've got it. B

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

...............you got that right.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

I am still wanting one of the "just push a button and go faster computers". Where are they?

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

does oyxiginated fuel meen any thing? how much air realy needs to be in there to make a big explostion. when some one fires a gun there no air in there to push that bullet out but fuel exploding just like the IC motor with alot of fuel.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

With some of the fear comments posted on here I am starting to think that the most these guys understand about their computers is how to play solitare and how to post on class racer about fuel injection raining on their parade.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Maybe there is a more entertaining way of doing this. If all of the Carb Guys send $50.00 to Gale Farts and have him administer an award to any FI car that triggers at Nat's. Maybe it will speed things up. Heck, you could double up on anyone that causes instant AHFS hp too. Call it the "Perfectly Screwed" Award.

I can't wait until we actually start racing so we can talk about something else..... It will be intersting to see how many guys that post here actually have race cars. Of couurse most of the nutless wonders don't have names......:) Ok, you guys can keep bitching now.

P.S> I don't have FI and might get stomped too. My goal is to at least make anyone in FI have to trigger to get around me. That's racing right?

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Mr Gale Force,I don't know what combo you run,but don't sweat all of this FI stuff so much.Just put a bigger carburetor on,and you should be fine.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

You better go back to school or hit the books and brush up on your chemistry and stoichiometry.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Sense you mr SS racer have a good under standing in cemical reactions. If you run this formula. I am sure you will come to some different conclustions. Al +3 Fe3O4---> 4Al2O3+Fe

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Gale Farce it`s bad enough you are on here with your stupid comments but you know what really pisses me off?....It`s your f**king ****ty spelling,ever heard of spell check or a dictionary?