Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

I don't think anyone raised the question, or the evil specter, of FWD cars competing with RWD cars at the same weight class. You ASSUMED they were.

Jim, you claimed you can't buy the parts. The Chrysler 2.5 liter 4 cylinder is not that hard to get parts for, people race them, and Chrysler supports them. Further, you seem to be inferring that Stock Eliminator parts for a small block Chevy, (or Ford, or Chrysler for that matter), are just commonly available at your local speed shop or parts store. No, they are not. You have to special order ALL of them. Pistons are custom made to order, you don't call Jeg's or Summit. Same with camshafts, same with rings, and all the other parts YOU claimed WE have that are "trick", and YOU claim are not available to YOU. I went down YOUR list, and told you what you could do, if you WANTED to, just like the rest of us do. I also agreed you couldn't get the drivetrain parts we can.

Further, you admit that you don't have the blueprinted Stock parts we have, and yet you can run so much farther under the index AND the record that AT LEAST as far as qualifying goes that there is NO COMPARISON. Then you claim you can't compete. But since you haven't bought the parts like the rest of us, you cannot back up that claim. You don't know what the engine CAN do, because you claim you can't get the parts. And yes, I've seen the FWD sport compact racing.

You plainly state you picked your car up almost FIVE SECONDS, and do it WITHOUT all of those engine parts, and told me I couldn't do that with mine (and you are right). And then you go on to tell everyone how far under the index and the record you can run without those parts, 1.35 under the index, and .37 under the current record. Well, I can tell you that a 69 Camaro 255HP 350 4 speed car will run around a mid 15 second quarter on street tires. The RECORD in G/S is 10.98, so that's 4 1/2 seconds, and to do it, you have to have all those trick parts you claim you can't get. That's 1.22 under the index. So, you've picked your car up more than I could pick mine up by the current standards, run farther under the index, AND can reset the record, by almost 4 TENTHS. Further, you did it without al those "trick parts". And you want to tell me because your slicks are on the other end of the car, you have it so much harder than guys like me?

You're right Jim, I don't work on FWD stockers. I worked on FWD cars for a living for years, and do not want to again. Yes, actually I have driven FWD cars at the track, and no, I much care for them. But that does not mean I don't have any idea how they work. And you came right out and told all of us they don't need parts to go fast (comparatively speaking).

Not only that, but the last race I was at, there were THREE cars I had to race for class (I got stomped, I've only run 7 tenths under, I'll go faster next time). So there are cars out there to keep guys like me honest, and make us actually run hard. When is the last time you faced three cars in your class at a small race like a SportsNational Open? You don't have to worry too much about anyone getting you HP, either.

To be in the same position as the guys racing G/S with the same combination as I am, or similar combinations, you'd have to have an index of 14.80, and you'd hold the record with your 13.60. AND you'd have to run a 13.80 to win class, most places you went, and face 2-4 cars. And that's BEFORE you'd have to buy all those parts you don't already have. And then you'd have to buy all those parts, because the other guys would, and NHRA would refactor you, just like they have us.

Your performance numbers, without the trick parts, put you on par with T/SA. They run at 19 pounds, you run at 16. So, what happens if NHRA says "okay, we're going to merge the FWD cars with the rest, and the handicap is that the FWD cars run 3.0 pounds per HP lighter than RWD"? I'm not saying it could, or should be done. But since you compared your numbers to a RWD class at the same weight, and you claim a severe disadvantage, I compared them to a much heavier RWD class.

So Jim, we've been honest, no name calling, and we've only stated FACTS. We disagree, and I can respect the fact that you race a FWD stocker, and you like it. But you say you can't discuss it anymore without getting mad? That's a shame. You assume we all want FWD cars kicked out. That's not true. The vast majority of us are fine with FWD cars, or slow RWD cars. But just don't try to tell us all how far the table is tilted for us and against you when the parts bill, the qualifying sheets, and the performance gains prove otherwise. And I still like you, I still respect you, I still want you to have a class to race your car, and I can still disagree with you and not get nasty.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Alan,
Thanks for the information you posted regarding the TOP/STK racing. Even better the discussion of parts availablity. Small block chevies didnt get running this fast by not ordering the parts. Rear wheel cars didnt get fast by not having the first person start the process of pro gears, Axles etc.Manufacturers create parts based on requests for them.
Seems from Jims discussion the FWD cars have not really shared the cost of approaching a manufacturer to start making the trick unbreakable parts to run faster. It appears by Jims on performances they havent needed these parts and it has gotten comfortable that way.
On one site a group of people were pooling money to purchase 5.00 gears for their cars as the manufacturers were willing to make a "run" if enough were purchased.
With the prior FWD racing meets enough people with money or need to buy these better parts didnt surface and the manufacturers didnt get into common production of them. The lack of interest from racers resulted in the demise of the NHRA series and the second sponsor.
Jim Who has the turbo Neon who drives to the meet in IHRA and qualifies 1.4 under? Just a question.
Jim as I posted on Superstockforum yesterday, I apologize that you took the "Class racing Question" as a "do away with FWD" topic. IT IS NOT. It is a consolidate topic to save Class racing so the $30K stockers are not just used for Bracket racing. The $150,000 AH cars not only have Indy to be presented as an attraction.

Alan is correct, changes are inevitable and I was only curious what constructive discussion points could be discussed to help direct these changes. If the racers continue to say "NHRA provides it so it must be right" many will keep being upset as the changes just Happen to them. With an Advisory committee attempt by NHRA , with honest calm discussion maybe NHRA would realize the racers CAN help direct the changes for better racing and work WITH NHRA to improve it for EVERYONE. Thanks

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

On the other hand, Dick, give the FWD racers their due. There will likely never be enough of them to get transmission ratios and final drive ratios made other than what is sold by the factory. That is true, and will likely remain true. In that area, and in weight transfer, they do have a distinct disadvantage that they will likely never overcome. Jim is quite correct, they cannot compete in the same weight class, at least not now, and likely never. Maybe they can be merged at a special weight break, and maybe they can't. And I am not saying they should be.

However, NHRA has consolidated classes in the last year or so already, and if all these people saying NHRA is looking to cut classes, they might be eliminating or merging other classes.

IF NHRA wants to reduce the number of classes, they have several options.

1. They could merge stick and automatic classes. The RWD racers are by far the majority, and the outcry would likely be pretty substantial, even the stick racers are fairly large in number.

2. They could take the 1/2 pound weight breaks in the upper classes and merge them to 1 pound weight breaks. The 1/2 pound weight break classes are AA thru N. There are a LOT of cars in those classes, and a lot of them will be very unhappy, and very vocal about it.

3. They could either merge the FWD cars, or eliminate them. There are fewer of them than there are in either of the other groups and options above. On the one hand, there's a good side to that. They only cut 5 classes, either way they go, merge or eliminate, so they don't make much progress in reducing classes, so doing something with FWD classes may not make enough of a difference for them to bother. The flip side of that is there are relatively few cars in those classes, and few racers, so they will not have nearly as much outcry if they get merged or cut. Which is why they are so defensive, and I can understand that.

4. They could do some combination of the above.

Now, I'm not advocating ANY of the above ideas. I'm not even one of the ones who proclaimed that reducing classes was NHRA's goal after the latest rule. I do not know whether they are or not for sure, but like I said before, I have "heard' they are.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Alan,
Good discussion. I still hope to see Jim acknowledge my apology. I did give the FWD racers their due respect for progressing and competing. If their classes become popular per class to attract 15 cars like GT/AA at Indy they will see the market for the parts they have yet to develop....You can bet the aftermarket pieces in those cars are at a maximum use to win that class. They also must recognize that when so many cars accumulate in BA or AA or AH it is an indicator of what Class racing means to a large number of racers. My thoughts were it should be widened to More racers to enjoy at more places to get the sense of accomplishment that comes from a Class win of this size. The winner of these classes can be as proud of class win as some might be at Dial in racing. Fewer classes/more per other classes the more this racing increases. It will be interesting to see the numbers in other classes for INDY.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Dick What makes you think some FWD racres haven't put a lot of effort into parts.
I had a torque converter built that had the same guts in it as a SS street hemi car would run made 3 passes with it and it didn't feel right. Sent it back , and was asked if I neutral dropped the car? It was destroyed inside. .
That was with a FWD stocker. Nothing wrong with the converter builder. A large percentage of class cars use the same. They eventually built one that lasted for years on my car.
What you guys are proposing is the same as running a bone stock 69 427 camaro against a present day 69 427 camaro stocker.
We do not have the 50+ years of development that the rwd cars have. And the only way the fwd cars could catchup would be to freeze rwd devolpment for years. And that ain't giong to happen.
One point you guys seem to miss is that the fwd cars use a lot more seat of the pants personal innovation than the rwd cookie cutter cars
Some mopar guys can't stand chevies or fords but do the preach doing away with them.
If doing away with fwd is what you want I think you are about 75 years to late and on the wrong continent

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

When everybody races we all win! The BIG THREE are sick why? Bad management and also what is the insentive to race American Iron.. REMEMBER RACE ON SUNDAY SELL ON MONDAY? Sure it is easy to race with Detroit muscle of the 60's 70' and those few inbetween( if you got the $$$). Watching 4's,6's and lower class V8's may not be very exciting to the public but it is quite the moment when they beat the fast guy. I'm going in the opposite direction. I have a 10.90 bracket car and I'm looking for a 4 banger stocker.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Classes were formed so that a wide variety of combinations could compete. The idea of trying to lessen the classes are for what reason?
The following questions should be said in a whining type voice. The answer part is done in a rather authoritive voice.
1) There are so many classes that there are too many bye runs for class
Answer-What does it matter, NHRA is only concerned with the fastest 128 according to its latest rule.
2) It takes too long to run all those singles.
Answer- It does not matter, they run singles as pairs anyway. Two classes, one run, two winners.
3) The sponsors do not like paying for singles.
Answer- NHRA needs to stop making the sponsors pay for ALL the classes that are in a category,
instead pay for only the classes with competitors in it. This will save them tons of money.
4) There are too many soft classes.
Answer- If they are so soft, then why are you not running that class and running 1.5 under being the #1.
5) There are too many slow cars.
Answer-Get off of your egotistical self centered trip, performance is what you make of it. BBC.SBC,
BBF, SBF, BBC, SBC, and soon to come, the Imports.
6) The fans don't want to see slow cars.
Answer-That is only in time trials, at 8:00 AM when the stands are "really" packed. During eliminations
though, you can bet that the old tortoise vs hare is the best show going instead of side by side
competition that they always see in the pro classes.
7) We need to change things as technology advances.
Answer-The imports are here, now you've got technology coming.
8) This is a performance based category.
Answer-Start over at question #1

Ron Ortiz
U/SA Cheese is now being served.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Thank you Ron, I owe you a beer or two! Jim

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Really? I have a 4 banger Stocker for sale, but I'm not looking for a 10.90 bracket car. (LOL)
Give me a call
602-769-0346

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

I just realized something. Some of you want to cut the classes in stock.
But nobody mentions Comp their are more comp classes the stock or super stock.
Why aren't you over there?
Afraid somebody with big bucks. Might arange an accident or suicide for you?????