How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

Dick Butler · 07-17-2008, 03:41 PM

If people wanted to get back to the performance classes, How many classes would be needed to make it racing again and achievement to win not just post a "good Number somewhere"?
TODAY : At points meets it is bracket race so everyone qualifies and runs on a dial in. No classes needed, just one set of rules and shoe polish.
At a National event, if you want more than one person to take home the money you need more separation of the cars into "Classes"
If you want to spead the accomplishment around and allow reward for competing Heads up with similar cars , How many classes are really needed? Does a special series of classes" Need to be for Trucks?" Do we need a FWD series of classes?Do there "need to be Modified classes in SS?"Does there need to be a Stick and an Auto series of classes?Could GT and SS be folded together with a wt break for SS?

How many rounds in class would make it fun ? 0ne? two?, How about 4 so we could shoot for no Bye runs. That would make it 16 cars per class. With 5 classes that is 80 entrants. or 8 classes 128 entrants.Again No Byes if you ran an eliminator with all the class winners 8,4,2,1 ( more could be used to ease wt issues)
NHRA could count on enough cars per about any division to have class at more events without all the BYE run winners taking up time to make runs. They could still admit the same numbers of cars and increase the non bracket racing.
8 classes in Stock , 8 in SS. This just means make em fit the Wt breaks like today. Maybe start at 6.0, 7.,8.,9.,10.,12.,14,16 in SS. Stock start at 8.
Sponsors might be able to return to pay 8 class winners not 96 or per event. Fans might like Heads up 8 classes. Racers might like the TOP/Stock type mentality of each wt break.
All the issues could be fixed with constructive thought not destructive agendas. It sure seems this would beat all bracket racing with only rewarding Fastest cars which might not even be produced or factored.

Larry Munk · 07-17-2008, 04:02 PM

Only one and you could fly in have the race over in 10 minutes. Let's call it AA/WALLET TOSS. NHRA was founded so that many different class cars could find a place to compete. The inovative classes of the 50's, 60's and 70's have been replaced by the buy your part classes of today. Not a bad thing but this sport needs a place for the Billy Nees's and Niel Smedleys too.

art leong · 07-17-2008, 04:06 PM

Dick you seem to be against the FWD classes.
Just for the record. What cars (street drivers). Do you and your family drive?
If you want all rear wheel drive cars. How about all the suv's that have no class to run?
Heres an idea. Three classes.
Stock all run anything goes idex 10.90
Superstock all run anything goes index 9.90
Comp/Superstock all run anything goes index 8.90
Will that MAKE you "happy"

Dick Butler · 07-17-2008, 04:17 PM

Art, Can FWD run in another Wt break is my question. Can they not compete unless by themselves? That is an honest question. How many wt breaks are needed for just FWD What if they all ran in ONE class and had ONE winner to provide to Eliminator?
As for the 10.90 question which I see as sarcasm but dont you recognize currently they just let you put the dial on and break out on your choice or win instead of them "giving" you a dial of 10.90? The difference is what now?
What does what I drive have to do with Class racing. Does there have to be a class for EVERYONE thing built? Okay? Any way you say it one car per class if there are 1000 classes is Bracket racing.... 10 Cars per class is class racing when they run each other....

Dick Butler · 07-17-2008, 04:25 PM

Larry , If there are so many classes to race and so few people who run per class it is already Wallet toss. The Cost of a car to dial in and run 1.0 under without racing someone for a prize even as small as a trophy and a trip to eliminator is too high today to save it for ONE professional Sportsman racer per event.
Some of the $30K Stockers or $50K SS or $100K AH + cars are too expensive to just dial in and gamble on all the factoring to be right to win a round against Pros..

Bill Belden · 07-17-2008, 04:44 PM

People who don't race shouldn't have any to say about class racing.

Larry Munk · 07-17-2008, 04:49 PM

Dick it's my choice to run a 50 cent POS just the same as it is someone elses choice to run a 50K collector car. You buys your ticket you takes your shot. I drove my first ever front drive stocker on Monday and it is an absolute HOOT to drive. I drive as Art says a front drive car every day. Never thought one of these things would be any fun at all, but I've been wrong on other stuff too. I've been doing this crap for a long time in total obscurity, but as long as most that post on here so I know a little history too. NHRA wasn't set up as a Country Club if it was most of us wouldn't want to be there. Is a Country Club Race Orginization what you want? If so start your own.

Tim Kish · 07-17-2008, 05:36 PM

There is as much diversity in FWD cars with power/weight ratio as thier is in RWD yet there are only 5 stock classes for FWD cars yet there are 46 classes for RWD. FWD are already combined Stick/Auto with 1lb or larger weight breaks. Super Stock there is only (1) FWD classification, again combine stick/auto.

Looking to Indy as the benchmark for participation there was a participant in each of the FWD classes - there were several RWD classes uncontested.

In terms on combining FWD and RWD on a single index this is unreasonable - power/weight factoring does not create a level playing field between FWD, RWD car and RWD truck (how many trucks have won class against cars since being combined - how many still even compete). The inherent handicaps on the chassis dynamics for both the FWD cars and the trucks would require some compensation. Possibly a weight break for them could level the field.

I'm all for more heads up runs - I'm waiting for Art to get the bugs sorted on his car so we can duke it out. I think there is enough data as most of the active combos have been running for 20+ years, they should be able to develop a factor (weight break, etc) to allow stick/auto to be combined.

Patrick Kelliher · 07-17-2008, 06:14 PM

As far as NHRA is concerned, leave the stock classes alone. FWD cars make great low budget and entry level cars. The same goes for lower class (U, V, W). SS and GT should remain separated, the differences are too great to combine these classes. The modified classes were supposed to be eliminated years ago anyways. Either move them to Comp or create a modified class again (unfortunately that will never happen). That's my opinion anyhow.

Dick Butler · 07-17-2008, 06:19 PM

Thanks Tim, That is the discussion needed. How to get it done.
As for not having a car one thing for sure I have nothing to gain from having friendly discussion about the topics on this or any other site. I am not pushing for any loop hole to make me a FAST SS?(fill in the blank) car by poor factoring, or creating a paper car to look good on paper when the Stats show up.
I enjoy friendly discussions and learning about other peoples points of view and cars and issues that affect them in Drag Racing.
I do feel strongly against the continual push to more Bracket racing with expensive S and SS cars. I think guys who get reward from competing Heads up deserve more attention too. Thats the way it started and has gradually been diluted as I have explained by TOO many classes to choose . I am not sure being creative in a one car class is the whole point of racing... It is afterall about RACING someone. If a class doesnt become populated by some critical number like 10 or 12 or?? should it always be on the books? Does the whole form of racing bend down to the least competitive parts of the racing.

07-17-2008, 03:41 PM	#1
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? If people wanted to get back to the performance classes, How many classes would be needed to make it racing again and achievement to win not just post a "good Number somewhere"? TODAY : At points meets it is bracket race so everyone qualifies and runs on a dial in. No classes needed, just one set of rules and shoe polish. At a National event, if you want more than one person to take home the money you need more separation of the cars into "Classes" If you want to spead the accomplishment around and allow reward for competing Heads up with similar cars , How many classes are really needed? Does a special series of classes" Need to be for Trucks?" Do we need a FWD series of classes?Do there "need to be Modified classes in SS?"Does there need to be a Stick and an Auto series of classes?Could GT and SS be folded together with a wt break for SS? How many rounds in class would make it fun ? 0ne? two?, How about 4 so we could shoot for no Bye runs. That would make it 16 cars per class. With 5 classes that is 80 entrants. or 8 classes 128 entrants.Again No Byes if you ran an eliminator with all the class winners 8,4,2,1 ( more could be used to ease wt issues) NHRA could count on enough cars per about any division to have class at more events without all the BYE run winners taking up time to make runs. They could still admit the same numbers of cars and increase the non bracket racing. 8 classes in Stock , 8 in SS. This just means make em fit the Wt breaks like today. Maybe start at 6.0, 7.,8.,9.,10.,12.,14,16 in SS. Stock start at 8. Sponsors might be able to return to pay 8 class winners not 96 or per event. Fans might like Heads up 8 classes. Racers might like the TOP/Stock type mentality of each wt break. All the issues could be fixed with constructive thought not destructive agendas. It sure seems this would beat all bracket racing with only rewarding Fastest cars which might not even be produced or factored.

07-17-2008, 04:02 PM	#2
Larry Munk Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 135 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Only one and you could fly in have the race over in 10 minutes. Let's call it AA/WALLET TOSS. NHRA was founded so that many different class cars could find a place to compete. The inovative classes of the 50's, 60's and 70's have been replaced by the buy your part classes of today. Not a bad thing but this sport needs a place for the Billy Nees's and Niel Smedleys too.

07-17-2008, 04:06 PM	#3
art leong VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia Posts: 2,003 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Dick you seem to be against the FWD classes. Just for the record. What cars (street drivers). Do you and your family drive? If you want all rear wheel drive cars. How about all the suv's that have no class to run? Heres an idea. Three classes. Stock all run anything goes idex 10.90 Superstock all run anything goes index 9.90 Comp/Superstock all run anything goes index 8.90 Will that MAKE you "happy" __________________ Art Leong 2095 SS

07-17-2008, 04:17 PM	#4
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Art, Can FWD run in another Wt break is my question. Can they not compete unless by themselves? That is an honest question. How many wt breaks are needed for just FWD What if they all ran in ONE class and had ONE winner to provide to Eliminator? As for the 10.90 question which I see as sarcasm but dont you recognize currently they just let you put the dial on and break out on your choice or win instead of them "giving" you a dial of 10.90? The difference is what now? What does what I drive have to do with Class racing. Does there have to be a class for EVERYONE thing built? Okay? Any way you say it one car per class if there are 1000 classes is Bracket racing.... 10 Cars per class is class racing when they run each other.... Last edited by Dick Butler; 07-17-2008 at 04:19 PM.

07-17-2008, 04:25 PM	#5
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Larry , If there are so many classes to race and so few people who run per class it is already Wallet toss. The Cost of a car to dial in and run 1.0 under without racing someone for a prize even as small as a trophy and a trip to eliminator is too high today to save it for ONE professional Sportsman racer per event. Some of the $30K Stockers or $50K SS or $100K AH + cars are too expensive to just dial in and gamble on all the factoring to be right to win a round against Pros..

07-17-2008, 04:44 PM	#6
Bill Belden Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: York, PA Posts: 241 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? People who don't race shouldn't have any to say about class racing. __________________ Bill Belden Retired Stock Eliminator [emailSTK1100@comcast.net[/email]

07-17-2008, 04:49 PM	#7
Larry Munk Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 135 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Dick it's my choice to run a 50 cent POS just the same as it is someone elses choice to run a 50K collector car. You buys your ticket you takes your shot. I drove my first ever front drive stocker on Monday and it is an absolute HOOT to drive. I drive as Art says a front drive car every day. Never thought one of these things would be any fun at all, but I've been wrong on other stuff too. I've been doing this crap for a long time in total obscurity, but as long as most that post on here so I know a little history too. NHRA wasn't set up as a Country Club if it was most of us wouldn't want to be there. Is a Country Club Race Orginization what you want? If so start your own.

07-17-2008, 05:36 PM	#8
Tim Kish Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 281 Likes: 2 Liked 11 Times in 4 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? There is as much diversity in FWD cars with power/weight ratio as thier is in RWD yet there are only 5 stock classes for FWD cars yet there are 46 classes for RWD. FWD are already combined Stick/Auto with 1lb or larger weight breaks. Super Stock there is only (1) FWD classification, again combine stick/auto. Looking to Indy as the benchmark for participation there was a participant in each of the FWD classes - there were several RWD classes uncontested. In terms on combining FWD and RWD on a single index this is unreasonable - power/weight factoring does not create a level playing field between FWD, RWD car and RWD truck (how many trucks have won class against cars since being combined - how many still even compete). The inherent handicaps on the chassis dynamics for both the FWD cars and the trucks would require some compensation. Possibly a weight break for them could level the field. I'm all for more heads up runs - I'm waiting for Art to get the bugs sorted on his car so we can duke it out. I think there is enough data as most of the active combos have been running for 20+ years, they should be able to develop a factor (weight break, etc) to allow stick/auto to be combined. __________________ Tim Kish 3032 SS/GS

07-17-2008, 06:14 PM	#9
Patrick Kelliher Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 124 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? As far as NHRA is concerned, leave the stock classes alone. FWD cars make great low budget and entry level cars. The same goes for lower class (U, V, W). SS and GT should remain separated, the differences are too great to combine these classes. The modified classes were supposed to be eliminated years ago anyways. Either move them to Comp or create a modified class again (unfortunately that will never happen). That's my opinion anyhow.

07-17-2008, 06:19 PM	#10
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS? Thanks Tim, That is the discussion needed. How to get it done. As for not having a car one thing for sure I have nothing to gain from having friendly discussion about the topics on this or any other site. I am not pushing for any loop hole to make me a FAST SS?(fill in the blank) car by poor factoring, or creating a paper car to look good on paper when the Stats show up. I enjoy friendly discussions and learning about other peoples points of view and cars and issues that affect them in Drag Racing. I do feel strongly against the continual push to more Bracket racing with expensive S and SS cars. I think guys who get reward from competing Heads up deserve more attention too. Thats the way it started and has gradually been diluted as I have explained by TOO many classes to choose . I am not sure being creative in a one car class is the whole point of racing... It is afterall about RACING someone. If a class doesnt become populated by some critical number like 10 or 12 or?? should it always be on the books? Does the whole form of racing bend down to the least competitive parts of the racing. Last edited by Dick Butler; 07-17-2008 at 06:21 PM.