Re: Dommination of FI cars.
I like that one Adam. One might say no names with no brains in the case of mister Forse or is it Farce
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
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Your chemical equation: Al + Fe3O4 = Al2O3 + Fe Balanced equation: 8 Al + 3 Fe3O4 = 4 Al2O3 + 9 Fe By the way, in the case you do not know: Al = Aluminum Fe= Iron O = Oxygen |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Just git rid off heads ups all together then there is no worries. Then you can go racing and not have 2 worry about gitting wacked by a guy with more cash then god even no if it was a dile in race you would b packing his ***..........
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
The FI cars and the "paper cars" are going to rub our nose in it.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
I agree, the AFHS will even this out. Keep working on your car, Hit the tree well and don't let out at the 660 mark when you can't win. Make the guy run all out. The FI cars will be brought back in line eventually have paientce. Most of us will not have that many heads
up's. If you do and can't win, buy a ladder book from Berine Cunningham and start avoiding them by playing the ladder. Just my .02 $ Quote:
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Hey Larry,
Lets see how everybody feels by August of 2008, by that time the sandbagging should be over.. Then they will see how it really is ? Please don't tell me that FI cars are now factored correctly, its a Joke... But I guess this is the only way to prove it... Larry, it will take years to even this move out @ 1-3 HP per hit... I guess they want us all to move to FI cars, hey its only money... Time will tell..... I do think we had too many classes,but not enough thought was given to the HP factors... Should be an interesting year on top of high gas prices and the cost of traveling.... |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Recommendation: give imput to NHRA to tighten up AHFS so it works faster or more often or at more places and EVERY bogus combination will be corrected faster as well as the FI cars... It is the right idea and based on real racing but just not effective enough yet...
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
A while back someone commented that you couldn't increase air flow in an FI unit. How about the fast idle control valve? On my bracket car thats a 3/4 inch o.d. air leak when activated. It could be activated with a switch. Do they even tech that? Sort of like pulling the line off the vacuum guage only with a map sensor to increase the fuel. Has to help.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
The fast idle control lets additional air in down stream from the throttle body. The MAP tells the computer to turn up the fuel. More air = more cfm that isn't controlled by the throttle body.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
I guess the man doesn't realize that at WOT there is no vacuum.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
SSdiv6- I'll be at the National Open in Bremerton in June. Stop by my pit and I'll give you a demonstration. It does make a difference. Hope to see ya. What is your car number?
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Lee, you better hope there's no 'vacuum' at WOT, or any other throttle position, 'cuz your engine will die. It's actually a negative pressure differential. Vacuum is the absence of air, or atmosphere. And some people think that it's an exercise that will clean their carpets. Now, don't anyone use it incorrectly from now on.
Next month, we will cover the proper usage of 'altitude' (what you achieve when you fly in aircraft) vs.'elevation' (what you experience more of at LVMS than at Atco). Class dismissed! |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
SSDiv6 is right Zach. No offense but I just didn't buy a killer high class stocker only to run someone in the same class, who is slower, running different dial ins. As far as the money aspect, and being beat by someone with more cash, if you're already worried about the money, maybe Stock and Super Stock aren't for you. If you love Bracket Racing so much and think heads up runs should be eliminated, then maybe you should consider sticking with Bracket Racing. Like what was previously posted, these are performance based classes. If we were to take away the performance aspect (heads up runs), it only water down the classes even further, plus, now new spectators would be confused when you have 2 cars in the same class, and one gets a head start. The only advantage to having a fast car, then, would be running heads up for class at National Events. And alot of people who run only divisionals would never be forced to step up performance wise, thus, diluting the eliminators even further. Just my $.02
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
I was gonna stay out of this thread but I couldn't stand it any longer and I do have a dog in the fight. Many of us knew early last season that the re-mixing of FI and traditional stockers was probably going to happen so I kept a pretty close eye on the 8lb and 8.5lb classes from the middle of the year on. I dont know where some people get their info but it doesn't look like total domination to me, in fact, the upper classes will probably be dominated by the same folks that dominated A/SA and B/SA last year; with the possible exception of Ryan McClanahan (probably the baddest Stocker there is) and maybe a few eastern LS-1's. Those of us with LT-1's will not find an easy path through the traditional cars. It is possible that the heavier FI cars have an edge in their respective classes but at the top of the heap, it aint gonna be easy. By the way: Evan, you were right on as usual. Gale Forse, you are an idiot! Speed Racer, (you little monkeywacker) I hope your Mom comes into your room and breaks your fingers; all of them! Zach, call me; you obviously have strayed since the last sermon and are badly in need of an attitude adjustment. I couldn't find anything in the new rule book that illudes to a soft, cushy transition from bracket guy to Stock Eliminator hero. Stock 1045 (whoever you are), you were right about Zach but please forgive him for being such a dummy. He drives very well and could be in a good Stocker ride but that would require a repositioning of his head so as not to have such a great view of his small intestine.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
I can't wait for the season to start so I can turn my Mustang loose and start bashing carburated cars,because if it's as fast as the carb guys think it is I'm going to have a great time.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Tom Turner---You're 110% right and I couldn't agree with you more......yes , its' very hard to stay out of this fight ! ! !
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Ken
Better check your dictionary before class. One way Webster's defines altitude is "height above sea level", another being "regions at a greater height than sea level". As for vacuum what you refer to is a perfect vacuum. Again, according to Webster's, a vacuum is "air or gas at a pressure below that of the atmosphere" or "to clean with a vacuum cleaner". In another post it was stated that there is no vacuum at WOT. The lowest pressure is in the cylinder on the intake stroke, but I don't think it is atmospheric pressure in the intake at WOT. This becomes a different discussion with a turbo or blower. I have never put a vacuum guage on an intake and looked at it in the traps but my thought is that there is still a pressure differential across the carb or a vacuum in the intake, just less than at idle. If there was none, going to a bigger carb would not increase the airflow and make more power and it usually does. Just my thought and I have been wrong before. |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
I have put a vacuum gauge on it and watched it from point A to B, and from the time I go WOT to the finish line it is ZERO.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Tom Turner, I'm not sure if it was your intention but please don't put words in my mouth. I never bad mouthed Zach in any way, nor did I call him a dummy. This is America, we are all entitled to our opinions. Zach's opinions are just as important as anyone elses and he certainly has a right to voice his without getting verbally clobbered. No offense, we class racers need all the competition we can get, and petty name calling and bickering certainly is not going to increase car counts anytime soon. What I merely pointed out was that I had recently purchased a very fast stocker and that any talk of heads up class runs as a debate would take the performance based aspect of Stock and Super Stock and pretty much throw it out the window. Zach had also mentioned the money it takes to be fast. I know. I watched Richard Todd, methodically build his 427 Ford Fairlane into one of the fastest stockers on the planet, and of course, his very successful dyno business in upstate New York from scratch. Let's face it the higher stock classes are becoming rather pricey. If heads up runs were to be eliminated, I could have easily gotten by buying some "stone" and not have to worry about running a faster car in my class heads up. That was my point. By the way, Tom, my name is Frank Hamer Jr., I recently purchased Richard Todd's A/SA 427 Fairlane, from Richard Todd, who is a personal friend of mine. I'm not on here to pick fights or to resort to petty name calling. If we don't actively promote our sport and constantly try to bring "new blood" into it, class racing could possibly end up on the endangered species list. Life is too short. I merely want to race, and of course, enjoy myself racing. See you at the races.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
WOW... Sounds like a bunch of old farts thanking this is still 1980. But the truth is that you are all just a bunch of pro bracket racers who bought or built a class car. If you really thank you r that bad and can make some big power with big money step up n go comp racing. Then you can race heads ups all day. The deal is i love stock n s/s no box racing is my deal but it is just hard 2 race a $45,000 doller car 4 a wopping $1300 bucks. The whole thang neads 2 step up n pay some cash. I am just hoping that avery one can come together class racers, super class racers, bracket racers ake all of us n start 2 git somthing going that pays i dont no about all of you but when it cost $750 a weekend 2 race and all you git is $1300 four the last 15 years somthing neads 2 change.TOM thanks 4 the complament on my driving but you nead 2 wake up and realize you r not warren johnson.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Lee
Don't doubt that you have seen 0 vacuum at WOT but I would bet most S and SS cars see some vacuum because they have to run the factory undersized carb. Reading info from Maxrace Software, and Larry did some testing on 283 Chevy SS combos with the 4GC carb and WOT vacuum was 4-7 "hg. If the engine can pull more air than can flow thru the 4 little barrels then you will have a restrictive carb which results in vacuum in the intake. The Holley Carburetors & Manifolds book says "If the carburetor is too small, pressure drop at wide-open throttle will be greater than the desired 1 inch Hg (for high performance). My guess is that most S and SS class cars have too small a carb because it was sized for driveability rather than all out race. So back to the original comment that got this started. If you can energize a solenoid at WOT and introduce a metered amount of air and the correct amount of fuel is injected by the computer, you have a HP increase. This is the same thing the 2 bbl stick shift stockers used to do in the early 70's by spacing up the carb from the intake and jetting up in the carb. It would pop and bang on the line but under load it made more power but it was a trial and error thing. Thats where the rule came from that required all vacuum leaks plugged and all carbs bolted tightly. If I get to the shop next week I will pull some Hemi dyno runs and see if we recorded vacuum. |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
just saying they r changin avery thang else in stock y not say no heads ups 4 a year and c what happens. There is ways 2 make it work and still make people want a fast car just dont b so old school and open your mind up. dont let nhra drag you around like a 5 year old kid in a store.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Speaking of popping and banging:
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...82607023UpwJHj Speaking of that, someone told me one time you could leave out two parts on a 4GC carb , jet the rear up .010 and pick up a tenth. Of course , I have no first hand knowledge of this. |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Mark--Great shot of "Bits & Pieces"--bring back those days.........
Zach Craig---R U Nutz ?????????? Frank---Welcome to Stock racing and by the way--- bring your wallet as A/SA is a very tough place ! ! ! And you're right-- life is short--enjoy it today . |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
What is the advantage to having no heads ups in stock class? Is it so you can race in the spotlight with a Pro ET car? Because with no heads up's we don't need to quailify, if thats the case why have any rules. Lets just run pump gas and stock apearing cars. Why do you want to race stock? If you want to race in a nat event why no just win the Bracket finals, and run the race of champions at Pomona. I built a car to run stock because I LIKED THE RULES AND THE GAME. If you don't like the current game sounds like you need to play somewhere else. Guys like you that come into our game are a cancer, because you have your own adjenda and don't care for the wellfare of the class or the sport. Try to race for a year and see how many times you loose a race because of heads up racing. I bet it is less then 5%. You can duck heads ups if you are smart enough, I've been doing it for years and have had some success
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
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I watched Jody Lang take baby steps from bracket to Stock, and later Super Stock...he paid the price and been successful. Do you think that you can go and race in Stock Eliminator in bracket mode and become a champion in a matter of a couple of races???? That to me is total arrogance on your part...like the adage says...grow up...smell the roses and either race with the big dogs, or stay in the porch. |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
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Ed F. NHRA #1945 IHRA #14 PS: Before you blast me note that I've had moderate success with a $12,000 car with a top 10 in Div.1 in 2006 (NHRA) and 2007 (IHRA).So it doesn't take $20,00-$50,000 car to do it.I also use a 1999 Dodge Dakota and 18' enclosed trailer,no motor home-stacker for me. |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
I just fell into this thread accidentally (since I've been out of this stuff for a while so I don't frequent the S/SS forums anymore). I haven't followed NHRA or IHRA S/SS rule changes either since I retired, but got excited when I found out in this thread the FI classes are being dropped for 2008. Being segregated from the traditional stock classes and put into a bastard child FI class offended me, so much so that it prompted my move into SS, where I got my *** kicked quickly, and decided it was better to just retire than cut up my car and sink a whole other fortune into it for SS. So I took my knowledge of EFI and went into tuning the ridiculously complicated OEM EFI systems for others. I can assure the OP that there is no magic HP key in the EFI programming. And it's a hell of a lot more difficult than tuning a carb.
As one of the earliest EFI guys in Stock, who struggled for years to figure out the technology, and claw my way to the basic performance standard, forcing me into a EFI class was like a slap in the face to me. Like many others, I couldn't resist commenting here. The argument is old, and doesn't seem to change. For fun, I dug up an old post I made in November 2000 during a similar argument when EFI classes were first implemented. Posted in its entirety below: ************************************************** ******************** As one of the early efi guys in stock, I have some comments. When I first started running my Ford efi car in stock back in the late '80s, everyone laughed at me. Sure the car got 20 instant hp from NHRA (God knows why?), and it was slow and embarrassing as I fought with the electronics, but slowly and eventually the car got faster as I figured it out, improved control systems became available, and the NHRA factor got more reasonable. Sure, lots of others have figured it out well too since, and run fast enough now that the HP probably needs another 5 (or 10 for the Cobras), but that's what the new NHRA factoring system should do. When guys started running the GM efi cars, they never had to deal with a high initial HP factor, and had the advantage of factory involvement (unlike Ford), newer electronic controls, and a better developed knowledge base to start with. So the GM efi cars got quick, real quick. And the NHRA factors started going up. They just haven't gone up enough yet. Again, that's what the new NHRA factoring system should do. I have to think back about the A fuelers in TAD. They were laughed at too, but a few diehard guys worked hard, figured them out, then started going really quick. Then all the alcohol guys whined, and NHRA stepped in to adjust the A/F factors, and the playing field leveled out. It's going to happen again in S/SS too, just give it a chance. NHRA used to adjust S/SS factors several times a year, but the system wasn't consistent. So they stopped adjustments for a long time (when was the last refactoring, does anyone remember?) while they worked on developing a better system. In the mean time, the underfactored cars flew, and there was much frustration with the overfactored or properly factored racers. It's got nothing to do with EFI vs CARBS, and/or a need for separate classes. It's got everything to do with PROPER HP FACTORS! Anyone who doesn't understand that, or chooses not to, can stick their head back in the sand, and quietly go the way of the old Hudson Hornet racers in Stock. The future is not going away. Live with it. As for "they some how manage to find 2-3 tenths", I can remember real well when Corda "mysteriously" picked up 2 tenths in his old Max Wedge, and beat (then A/SA record holder) Mosbek's 426 in a heads up elimination round at Brainerd several years ago. He's been doing that since long before EFI. So have plenty of others. In another 10 years, the EFI guys will probably be complaining about the hybrid guys going too fast..... 5010 SS |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
I recently had an email discussion with somebody in Finnland. I noticed in one of the links he provided me there were pictures of various Stock and Superstock vehicles; most which are recognizable to many of us as they once were raced in the USA. The recognizable ones are so because they were, at least previously, the fastes of the breed here in the USA. Looking at the dial-ins posted on the windows I noticed the ET's were WAY off base (slower, much slower) than what you would expect here in the USA for a comprable field. I asked what the track and weather was like. Sounded like a good day in Englishtown to me. All the cars seem capable of big wheelies so traction doesn't appear to be an issue. I didn't want to insult them but I finally had to ask, why are these cars all so slow? His response: a short season and lack of heads up runs.
I keep saying this, if you don't promote heads up runs, the sport will die! Throw 'em all in the mix and let the weak leave and the strong will survive. Like Tom Turner just posted, nothing says this is supposed to be fair or easy. I'd like to see the rules stipulate if you weigh enough for the next lower class then that's were you will race. That or 100# max over minimum; either one would make me happy. That would make it harder to avoid the AHFS. Am I right or wrong? Combine the sticks and auto's also. Bring some competitive blood to the sport and the AHFS will get triggered quite regularly, right? And this comes from a SS/H racer that is only .700 under at present and that's nothing to get excited about in SS/HA! |
Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Zach, Enough's emough. Now go to your room. Let me get this straight; you now want NHRA to change the rules, that have been in effect for as long as I can remember, so as to allow you to race Stock Eliminator on your limited budget (obviously less than $45,000). Boy isn't it just like Generation X, or Y, or Z, for that matter try to change the rules in an attempt to stack the deck without the customary hard work, sacrifice, perserverence, and of course, at least $45,000 in their pocket that it takes to go fast (according to Zach). No offense Zach but I honestly thought you were trying to, as you put it, open our minds, but in effect, you do nothing but plead your own case as to how the rules should be changed to suit you, and of course, your limited budget. I'll leave you to Tom Turner (whoever he is). Have fun boys. I certainly hope these posts haven't cut into my 15 minutes................... Frank Hamer Jr.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
I am sorry if i offended eny one in eny way. I no that with more heads up races car counts will hit the craper. Not 2 meny guys want 2 dump big bucks in a car just so they can conpeat. I am one of thim at this point. Not that my family n team does not have the cash the brains or the tallent. Just 4 info we have ben racing s/c and brackets 4 a few years now with some success. And no i am not a cancer looking 4 the spotlight i do that with what i have. I just like no box racing over electronics that is all. Good luck 2 all in the 2008 racing season
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Jack, Thanks for the warm welcome. I actually ran a J/SA 79 Aspen on and off for about 4 years in Division 1. Oh I know how the game is played, and of course, the costs. But you got to admit, I'm bringing one mean mother of a gun to the fight. I stand corrected, Richard Todd and Tommy Baird ran the fastest side by side Stocker run in NHRA history I think it was either 2000 or 2001. Richard Todd went 10.12, Tommy Baird went 10.13. Enjoy and see you at the races. Frank Hamer Jr.
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Re: Dommination of FI cars.
Since the number of classes in Stock have been cut in half, does that mean the class winners receive double the purse???????
Why doesn't NHRA post the payout at any events to include class????? I can say at a div. race last year I got lucky 5 times. Care to take a guess at my purse????? A whooping $150 !!!! I support the classes combining but still have not heard any new NHRA Purse POSTINGS !!!!!!! Where is the incentive ??? P.S. At the previously mentioned divisional, I could not even run the index :) |
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