Grossi and the Big Block
 

9.17 is pretty damn stout, this maybe the first GT/AA into the eights in the right conditions. I sure would love to see it happen at a non factored track.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Well it looks like their getting the power to the ground............many teams have the potential to be the first in the eights but team Grossi is a favorite now as well. How many runs on that new combo?....roughly maybe 12 total and cooler weather is on the way......should get interesting in the GT/AA "race to the eights"

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

I'm actually very suprised that a GT/AA car hasn't been in the 8's yet, with as many high budget "pocket rocket" cars as there are in the class. I'm surprised its taken this long for it to even get close to it actually happening. I remember a few years back, most thought that one of the GT/AA cars, especially Fogle was on the verge of being the first GT car in the 8's. It seems that they kinda stalled out a bit. Its been a year and half since Shaun Leblanc went an 8.97 at Belle Rose, with a 428 CJ and a "big" car. And it only REALLY counts if you put the number on the boards.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

At Indy the car looked a little lazy off the starting line, but I think the horse power is there. When that car gets sorted out and is turning some good 60 foot times it should be a rocket Don Jackson

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

That 350 combo of the Fogle's has been given a good bit of horsepower in the last year or so. I think they were very close to running in the eights or may possibly have before the engine got "hit" Don Jackson

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

you are absolutely correct. Many guys have flogged the same combo to death. Now Grossi, Bo Kenny and others are exploring new options. Things should get real fast really quick. I'm just suprised that people haven't gotten creative with the combos before now

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

I don't think you're going to find too many people trying for the "eights" because of the 1.40 under penalty on Monday.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Sean,

That is the problem isn't it.........the person who get's close to the eights has to be sure they can get "well into" into the eights at a specific time. If they will get close but don't quite make it the combo will be hit to the point where it might be too hard to achieve again..............kind of sounds like a one shot one time deal for a specific combo.

Getting into the eights surely will cost your combo..........

We'll see..........

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Getting creative with new combinations isn't the problem. The problem is the inadequate factoring methods used to rate these combos.

Any competent engine designer/builder can calculate within 1-2% how much power an engine can make with the data we have.

Why then is it such a suprize how fast these combos can go? Grossi's big block, Wigle's 460, the LS1. All under-factored from the start.

Lets get into the 21st century and factor these engines correctly in the first place, then let the best man win.
....and put the poor over-factored 300 motor back where it belongs.

FJ

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Hey FJ,
Colin Wigle is running a 429 rated at 371, not the 460 rated at 300. He is the first guy to even attempt to run that engine in probably 20 years in S/S. 700+ lbs of Dearborn iron sitting in that unique Mustang. No aftermarket heads or anything like some of the combos have. I think he is doing very well for a brand new combination!

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

You miss the point.

Whether it be the first crack at a combo or not, the factor needs to be correct before the engine is run.

The source of the heads, aftermarket or OEM doesn't matter. The correct HP can be accurately calculated and then a factor assigned.

FJ

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

I don't know of any GT-AA car with a big block chevy that has run that fast. Besides Tony Cretella He went 9.12 and possibly faster. I'm sure the drag racing stat dude will know who has the fastest bbc gt car

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Ditto, and well said. Sean, I saw your run. You performed flawlessly. Great job keeping that car safe and saving that beautiful paint. Tell your dad I said hello.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

I second that one Bill!!!

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

I saw Andy go 9.07 at Bradenton in 2007 and I am sure if it weren't for the factoring on the combo they probably would be there. Jeff Lawrence went 9.28 with his 351 powered 88 Mustang in GT/AA at Englishtown, he is player also.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

When has that ever happened FJ? I have never seen it. Then by virtue of its flawed statistics the AHFS exacerbates the problem by keeping all the fast combos all on top.

Congrats to Frank Grossi for finding the combo and having the courage to run it. Also congrats to all the guys at Eaton for making the power and Phil Mandella for the killer car and chassis set up.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

My point is the system as it is, is antiquated.

It allows a combination to run at an unreasonable HP factor until (if) the factoring system catches up.

Yes, I'll credit someone to choose something new, but the factor needs to be reasonable and with today's technology, that is not difficult to achieve.

In the meantime, it makes the tried and true (and in many cases overfactored) combinations un-competitive.

FJ

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

The real problem, as I see it, is that there are some combos that are classified wrong. They will run with an enormous amount of weight and still run 1.3 or more under. The tech people should be aware of somebody running real fast then being way over at the scales. It is sandbagging to save their bogus combo. If they get hit, they will just remove some weight and go for it again. The combo can be milked for years like this.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Running overweight is an additional problem of engines being under-factored.

It's always been difficult to understand why NHRA tech doesn't take this into consideration when re-factoring a combo. After all, they record weights every time the car goes over the scales, so why isn't this included in the re-factoring?

This is another reason why engine combinations, especially new ones should be properly appraised for the correct HP factor before being approved for use.

The current factors for a couple of these combos are out by approximately 30hp!

FJ

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

ALL i know is that is one fast car.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

It is definitely FAST.

Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed-----Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed
7056 Frank Grossi 51 Gary Stinnett
E5 ****WINNER**** 0.095 9.073 145.80 0.033 9.232 147.73
GT/AA Dial: 10.40 (+/-): -1.327 GT/AA Dial: 10.40 (+/-): -1.168

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

how about Stinnetts speed ..pretty stout if its true..

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

FJ,

I heard there was a HP review on that 1975 454 and they took HP off due to the smaller 220 ccs where the 1974 454 had upwards of 250 intake ccs.

We found that pretty funny because our 455SDs are rated the same horsepower (325HP), dont have splayed valves, has less compression, and our intake runners are 188ccs.

I would say there are tons of potential in that BBC Combo, hats off to Frank for making the correct pick!

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Lynn:

That's the point. NHRA tech's "throw darts at the wall' approach to factored hp figures has to go.

All this can be solved by submitting a finished head for flow testing to determine its HP capabilities. We need to get into 21st century technology.

FJ

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Are you saying submitting a finished a Stock or Super Stock head to NHRA? If you are saying to submit a finished Super Stock head to NHRA, you are dreaming!!! NHRA does not have a flow bench and doubt anyone in the Tech department knows how to use one. Taking this into account, they send the cylinder head to a shop that may also build SS engines, so this way they can get the knowledge and hard work of other shops for free.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

FJ,

Let's face it, most all GTAA combos are "favorable" combos or they wouldnt be running them ours included. The square port big block combos are tough at 3610lbs.

I dont think the head flowing rule would work. The same thing would happen there as happened with the CC numbers. That is the biggest farce in SS that no one talks about ('cept yours truly). People would show up with bogus heads. How you gonna calibrate the flow bench? Stacy recently got a set of heads flowed on 4 flow benches. He got 4 way different numbers.

Also, head flow is only 1/2 the battle for making power. Especially in a larger cubic inch engine. In fact, most head porters will tell you that they go for port shape first and flow second. We recently did dyno testing on the cross sectional area of the intake port at the push rod. We lost 60HP even though the flow was about the same.

We bonehead technical guys even have an equation for it. (It serves my anal retentive tendencies very well :)) Just for those interested in such things. To me it is fun to find good operative tools that we can find good correlations in science. None of them are perfect and there are always exceptions. (disclaimer Travis style;))

Choke:

CSA = bore * bore * stroke * RPM *.00353/614

CSA = minimum cross section of your intake port not the average
614 is feet per second (usually actually twice that of a pitot tube measurement) This number can move around a bit by maximizing factors that contribute to intake Choke

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

That's if they don't loose it! :(

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Believe me, I realize this is idealistic, but if you check with compentent engine designers and builders as well as the cam people, they will tell you that with accurate information, the HP can be accurately predicted from the head flow.

Yes, Lynn, there is a lot of bogus info out there from flow benches to dynos. I see it regularly, as I've had my dyno and bench for over 20 years.

The point is, the rest of us shouldn't have to wait until (or if) the factoring system "fixes" these inequities.

FJ

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

You can't use port volume as a barometer either, port length throws that one out.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

SPS, There is a large group who support the "underfactor deal" They feel the picking of a combo that has been overlooked or inadequately factored is special part of S and SS. Meanwhile a few who HAVE a race car and are financially committed to one combination get HP whenever one of the upper group hit the index deal of AHFS. The only way it will stop is 1) limit the engine combinations to those currently factored and upgrade the AFHS to Really hit the odd combinations( Wont happen)
2) make people submit new combo to NHRA TECH for upgraded factor BEFORE the Monster shows up.
Problem is now days if people can change to keep up after 10 or so are built THEN NHRA seems amazed and starts to factor them even if too slowly.
Some people make a life style of running a "weak" factor motor, winning selling it and moving on to the next weak factor. They are heros in the sense they excell at this part of the rules. Could they be the fastest, quickest, best if 10 were built in their class. Answer is doubtful they are just so first with the combo they are great at the game....they play.

Think there are not some WORSE killers out there now? I agree the method is antequated to use the Dartboard techniques.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

So what is wrong with picking up an underfactored engine? Don't blame it on the racer; blame it on the lack of oversight by NHRA. If they paid close attention to the weight of the car at the scales and compared it to the weight it is supposed to carry for the class and also the MPH, they could figure out how fast the combo can run and figure out it is under factored.

Why limit the engine combinations if the particular engine was available from the factory? Again, you are trying to bring your idea of the Top Super Stock that you have been trying to push so hard many times?

How can you factor an engine when it has not even hit the track? Do you or NHRA have a crystal ball to figure out the HP of a combination before it hits the track?

Again, NHRA's lack of oversight.

Like I stated prior, what is wrong with picking up an underfactored engine? Many of those underfactored combos many times are not Chevy's but other makes of engines that only a few can make go fast.

Yes there are, and believe me, some are not factored low either.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

What's missing is the fact most racers wouldn't even bring out a new combo if it received an immediate (and assumably high) HP hit from NHRA. Take the 1994 LT1 F body for example. Factory rated at 275 HP, we all knew it would be a killer. We also knew there would be a learning curve on these FI engines. At 275 HP, it was worth the risk and hopefully the rewards would be great to the racer. What are they now? 326 HP or so? Had NHRA assigned 320+ HP to them in the begining, you wouldn't see nearly as many of them as you see today.
So I could make the argument that UNDERFACTORING is good.

I just brought to the attention an engine that's been raced and on the books since the '70's to another racer. He has dismissed the engine for his SS/GT project as "over factored" I brought it to his attention there was a revision to the compression several years ago and I thought it was worth a second look. He did and now he is building that engine. So that's an example of an "over factored" engine that maybe isn't so "over factored". I predict he'll be at the top of his class. But it will take going down the track first. And if it get's AHFS'd, then so be it. But I know sure as shinola he and I wouldn't discuss this engine if it was 20 HP higher based on some "what if" HP assignment by NHRA.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

SSDiv6 First I have reread my post and no where did I BLAME the racers. In fact I used the word Hero to describe the user of the classic "underfactor" method of building a new car.
Why limit the motors? No this does not have to do with the TOP/SS racing or TOP/STK racing. The opposite. AA/AH is the LIMITED class. Only Hemi cars..... TOP/SS and TOP/STK are for ALL BRANDS to race HEADS UP like CLASS but with MORE PEOPLE in the CLASS.
Factoring before they reach the track? What do you think a 350 chevy flat top motor with a 400 carb and heads should be if all factors are better than a 300 hp motor. Should it be 25 hp less or even or more?
What about an Injected 305 versus a carb motor? Notice I am speaking of chevy combos that have been overlooked in factor correction before they show up and then the begin to eliminate other motors as they are not agressively factored. That is not totally wrong but costly to keep changing to lower hp stuff...
Jeff. Weaker factor is how NEW cars get to be used by racers to do away with old stuff. Seems Nostalgia racing is regaining though.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

The heads up between grossi and stinnett was pretty interesting, at about 1700-2000ft da grossi's 9.08 was pretty impressive, but as it was said earlier stinnetts mph at almost 149 is pretty good for a 9.20, i wouldn't be surprised to see frank run a sub 9 second run later in the year

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

148-149 MPH equates to an 8.85 to 8.91 right now, not later in the year! Grossi' has his car working right as his 145 and change MPH equates to a 9.05-9.10.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

If you look at some photos of Stinnets car on auto imagery.....He sometimes runs a big front spoiler looking thing that is not OEM on the front of his car. He may have had it on and tripped the beams with it....

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

You are exactly right Rich. Stinnett does run a spoiler (not sure about the non-OEM issue) and he always gets bogus mph readings.

That motor in Grossi's car is SOOOOO underfactored that I bet Grossi will go out and run 8.80s in Pomona, get hit with 13 horsepower and still be the fastest AA car around. If anything, that car may work better with more weight in it.

So, given all the criticism and speculation, is it safe to say that a big block will work in a fwd conversion?

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

All this comes down to a woefully inadequate tech department. As was mentioned, they don't have a flow bench, dyno etc, nor the manpower to run them or analyze the data.

Hense we have engine combos like this (and the Ford, and LS1) that are allowed to run grossly underrated until and if they are factored.

If the weather stats are close to correct on Drag Race Central, Grossi's 9.073 is an 8.921 corrected. That takes close to 730 hp to go that fast. Talk about soooo underrated.

The tech department has to do a far better job in baselining these factors. This is why I suggested (idealistically) that a head be submitted and tested before a new combo be run.

FJ

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Congratulations to the team of Frank Grossi, Phil Mandella, and Gary Hetler. They gambled, worked hard, and are enjoying some well deserved success.

Re: Grossi and the Big Block
 

Damn right Jim.......End of Story !