Stick vs. Auto index
 

Why the discrepancy between indexes in Stock with stick vs. auto?
The total difference when comparing 1/4 mile indexes is a whopping 2.00 seconds favoring the auto over the stick combinations. I've always wondered why, especially in this day and age of some pretty sophisticated transmissions, convertors and clutches. I have to believe that with the allowance of a metric 200, 904 TF or C4 in lieu of the factory offering of T400/350, 727 TF & C6 and even the allowance of a Jerico or Liberty in lieu of the T-10, M-21/22 or Top-Loader that the performance issues of yesterday are no longer worth consideration.

Some of the classes are seperated quite a bit while others are not. There doesn't seem to be a pattern as you go down the list. You'll find no differences in some of the lower classes such as L & M then the differences appear again. Look at R, T & U. So the normal argument about the little engines favoring a stick don't seem supported.
I ask that as I've heard of some racers willing to convert to a stick application but have issues that they could loose performance in relationship to the index. That's not even taking into account the lack of any delay device in the stick applications compareable to what is offered to the auto racers. And why shouldn't the stick racer have the same reaction time tools as available to the auto racers?

I heard rumor that one of the racer representatives would not accept that there were any differences between the indexes. So hear it is, for those not aware. The total difference is 2.000 seconds.

I'm looking for constructive comments and may even follow with a poll after everybody has had time to present their opinions.



Stock Indexes
Last Update: 10/7/2008
Class 1/4 Mile 1/8 Mile -------------------------------difference
AA/S 10.90 07.03 ------- AA/SA 10.90 07.03 -------.000
A/S 11.25 07.24 --------- A/SA 11.30 07.27 ------- .050
B/S 11.50 07.39 --------- B/SA 11.55 07.42 ------- .050
C/S 11.65 07.47 --------- C/SA 11.70 07.50 ------- .050
D/S 11.80 07.57 --------- D/SA 11.85 07.60 ------- .050
E/S 11.95 07.65 --------- E/SA 12.00 07.68 ------- .050
F/S 12.10 07.74 --------- F/SA 12.15 07.76 ------- .050
G/S 12.20 07.79 --------- G/SA 12.30 07.86 ------- .100
H/S 12.30 07.86 --------- H/SA 12.45 07.94 ------- .150
I/S 12.50 07.97 ---------- I/SA 12.60 08.03 --------- .100
J/S 12.65 08.05 --------- J/SA 12.75 08.11 --------- .100
K/S 12.85 08.18 --------- K/SA 12.95 08.22 -------- .100
L/S 13.00 08.26 --------- L/SA 13.00 08.26 --------- .000
M/S 13.15 08.33 -------- M/SA 13.15 08.33 ---------.000
N/S 13.25 08.40 -------- N/SA 13.30 08.43 --------- .050
O/S 13.40 08.48 -------- O/SA 13.45 08.51 --------- .050
P/S 13.65 08.62 -------- P/SA 13.75 08.68 ----------.100
Q/S 13.95 08.79 -------- Q/SA 14.10 08.88 ----------.150
R/S 14.25 08.96 -------- R/SA 14.35 09.02 ----------.100
T/S 14.70 09.21 --------- T/SA 14.70 09.21 ----------.000
U/S 14.95 09.34 -------- U/SA 15.15 09.45 ----------.200
V/S 15.55 09.68 -------- V/SA 15.80 09.81 ----------.250
W/S 16.70 10.35 ------- W/SA 16.95 10.51----------.250

I'll follow up with a Superstock comparrison.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Lets see, stick cars (4 speed) automatics 3. In high gear converters slip, clutches lock up. Also,there are many more gear ratio's avalible for standards. Just my thouights. Gary

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

I agree with Gary, look at Top Stock and Junior Stock in D-1. Winner are usually the stick cars. Can control the starting line better (if you know clutches) and it locks up top end (check out MPH). Stick cars are more efficient

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Who cares ?

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

The index is what the AHFS provides. For a real comparison of performance look at the records vs index vs stick & auto.
See any surprises?

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Has anybody looked at the ratio of Stick to Auto entries at any event? If the stick has an advantage, don't you think more people would jump on that advantage. While the stick technology is much improved it still isn't as consistent as the auto. Perhaps clutchless shifting would even the playing field.
Paul Berg I/S 2664

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Jeff,
The disparity in Super Stock is much greater, i.e. in our class SS/M 1/4 mi. index is 11.90 and SS/MA is 12.15. That's like cutting a .002 light against a .252 and getting to the finish line at the same time.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Anything that would promote more poepl building stick cars is a bonus, in my opinion! Stick cars are cool.

I would imagine that sticks and autos could be combined, with weight breaks as necessary... if done intelligently. (wait, nevermind!)

Pure Stock and Crate Motors have them combined. There are a handful of stick cars in Pure Stock, but I've only ever seen one Crate Motor car with a stick... '55 Chevy if I recall. That was the coolest thing ever!

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Gary, Joe,

I would like to voice an opinion from the other side of the fence: Over the last few years automatics have really benefited from the advent of the ProTrans (or similar), Radial tires (which don't work on a stick) and improved converter technology. This has amounted to gains in the neighborhood of .2-.3 tenths for the average racer, yet there has been no such advance in technology for stick racers. Clutches are better than they used to be, but not to the tune of .2 tenths.

I can't speak for Top Stock, but in Jr. Stock, Bruce, Ficacci Jr., Henry, Lowell and I all run close. Ficacci gets about a 100-lb. break with the stick (over his old combo) because the combo is factored softer than with the auto. Not a stick deal, more a factor deal. It's also hard to compare an entire class based on a handful of cars. Steve Ficacci Sr. has all but owned Top Stock, but his driving is amazing, as is the performance of his car.

There is no way that stick cars are .10-.20 quicker than their automatic counterparts on average, as the indexes would suggest. Of course this could be argued all day and night, but the numbers don't lie.

Evan

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Looking at this year's Indi qualifying, I don't see much of an advantage for the stick stockers. I looked at the classes that have at least three stick cars and compared them to the top three automatics in that class. In some cases the automatics are the faster cars. In D and E the fastest car is the one with the slushbox....

3533 A/S Brett McFarland '68 Camaro 10.159 -1.091**
1441 A/S Richard Adkins '67 Shelby 10.209 -1.041
3602 A/S Jason McCormack '67 Plymouth 10.230 -1.020
1308 A/S Ralph Porpora '69 Camaro 10.285 -0.965
1681 A/S Tom Baird '69 Camaro 10.321 -0.929
10 A/S Troy Henderson '68 Camaro 10.352 -0.898
4455 A/SA Ronnie West '70 GTX 10.205 -1.095**
T700 A/SA Paul Cannan '69 Camaro 10.232 -1.068
1990 A/SA David Barton '65 Coronet 10.262 -1.038


4448 D/S John Duzac '67 Camaro 10.722 -1.078**
162 D/S Tim Abbazia '62 Corvette 10.829 -0.971
751 D/S Ben Wenzel '67 Camaro 10.864 -0.936
5009 D/SA Scott Burton '71 Formula 10.708 -1.142**
11 D/SA Lee Zane '98 Firebird 10.770 -1.080
256 D/SA Amy Faulk '01 Firebird 10.797 -1.053


2217 E/S Brian Rogers '69 Camaro 10.975 -0.975**
1165 E/S Dean Cook '71 Mustang 11.000 -0.950
3272 E/S Martin Jeltema '72 Mustang 11.136 -0.814
31 E/SA Greg Hill '71 Camaro 10.925 -1.075**
2237 E/SA Butch Payne '97 Firebird 10.932 -1.068
7980 E/SA Steve Wann '74 Dart 10.973 -1.027


54 I/S Steve Brack '87 Camaro 11.380 -1.120**
3163 I/S Jim Schaechter '66 Nova 11.449 -1.051
1168 I/S Dean Cook II '95 Mustang 11.582 -0.918
1021 I/SA Gene Monahan '90 Formula 11.454 -1.146**
3277 I/SA Rick Winchester '73 Camaro 11.552 -1.048
3089 I/SA David Morgan '90 Trans Am 11.554 -1.046

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Probably the transmission manufacturer (Jerico, Liberty) the clutch manufacturer's (McLeod, Advanced, Boinifante, etc.) and maybe the stick racers that are loosing up to a 1/4 second on the index.
The point is, as I and Evan Smith stated, the spread while once warranted, is no longer neccessary. Yes, a stick car will and should MPH faster. In the end, if adjusted, nothing changes except qualifying order. And since qualifying order is based on ET and not MPH, what's the big deal?

And I should also clarify my first post on this subject. I believe electromagnetic clutch pedal releases should only be allowed in classes which allow a trans-brake. Specifically, I am referring to Superstock.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

We all know that stick cars are direct drive in high gear, giving them better mph on average, but let's not forget that automatics often kill stick cars in 60-foot and to the 330. I've seen plenty automatic small-block Stockers (E/SA-G/SA) out-60-foot the A/S-C/S cars all day long. I'd take a killer 60-foot, which will help e.t. greatly, over big mph, which doesn't hurt, but doesn't really help e.t., any day! We also have plenty of gear selection, but only a small selection that will actually work, much like the low-gear-set or non-low gear for automatics.

Evan

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Jeff and Evan,

It sounds like you are looking for a little competitive advantage again. Lord knows you would never do that!

You guys say you're losing up to a quarter second on the index hmmmm. I don't think so. You have much better mile per hour which would certainly come into to play if we ran automatics and sticks heads up, which would be the case after the classes were combined. And they certainly would be combined. How about the records, how would an automatic ever get another mile per hour record?

You guys crack me up. Leave things alone.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

They should never have separated the HP on stick and autos..Why?.. they are the same engines! ..only changed the index-spread if it was needed for fairness..the HP differences for stick/autos are in some cases ridicuolus..

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

I think in a lot of cases the indexes aren't too far off. I know you're talking about Stock but take a look at Superstock. Especially like SS/K-SS/M. Those classes there can be a huge difference in actually ET. Look at the difference between the 283 cars in these classes with the stick and autos. I also think there is a lot to be said for what someone else mentioned earlier that look at the ratio of autos to sticks at most races. I'm not saying the research and development isn't good with the stick cars but I think more attention is put on the autos do to the mass of cars.

Just my opinion
Rick

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Evan, I do not disagree with anything you said technology wise but.....I still believe the stick shift car in the quarter mile is more efficient and faster et and MPH. If you put an automatic in your car do you think you would still run those numbers?

Yes there are alot of fast top stock and junior stock auto's in D-1 but the monsters are the stick shift car. You, Steve F jr and Steve F sr have out perfomed every auto this year. I hate to say Richie Atkins has not unloaded yet in top stock because that will side track this auto vs stick discussion. I know all the D-1 racers have worked their tails off testing and spend the frog skins, I applaud you all.

Before any one jumps in, I have no desire to build a stick car, a "soft combination". Keep this to stick vs auto. Great debate.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Evan,
I think your stick car runs pretty good at G weight ...

Sat, 21 Oct 2006, 05:53 PM
Junior Stock Qualifying, Final Order
MOHNTON, Pa. - Final order after one round of qualifying in Junior Stock at the NHRA, Pennsylvania Dutch Classic:

Psn---Num-Driver, Home Town, Car Type---------------Qual-ET--Qual-Spd-Top Spd

1 1798 Evan Smith, Linden NJ, '93 Mustang 10.860 121.76 121.76
2 1701 Bobby Twynam, Chatham NJ, '72 Nova 10.899 120.22 120.22
3 1534 Henry Kunz, Farmingdale NY, '69 Nova 10.900 120.34 120.34
4 1967 Jim Marshall, Scottsville NY, '80 Corvette 11.010 118.70 118.70
5 1137 Cecil Frazier, Canton MA, '91 Camaro 11.053 117.54 117.54
6 1454 Ken Kopecky, Edison NJ, '71 Demon 11.055 118.90 118.90
7 1035 Todd Hoven, Spotswood NJ, '72 GTO 11.060 117.91 117.91
8 1143 Johnny Williams, Smithfield RI, '71 Cutlass 11.087 118.13 118.13
9 1121 Lenny Williams, Poughkeepsie NY, '71 GranSport 11.135 117.65 117.65
10 1773 Dustan Lowell, Knsington NH, Duster 11.162 117.00 117.00
11 1142 Steve Ficacci, East Hanover NJ, '72 Camaro 11.166 117.00 117.00
12 1421 Kevin Fogerty Jr., Chalfont PA, '67 Camaro 11.381 116.15 116.15
13 1256 Len Abrahamson Jr., South Berwick ME, '72 Dust 11.423 116.15 116.15
14 17 Shane Oakes, Pipersville PA, '86 Camaro 11.492 116.98 116.98

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Bruce, I'm only assuming you didn't follow the chart on post #1 or maybe you don't believe it. There ARE upwards of a 1/4 second differences on index, stick vs. auto, same class designation. And I guess I could spin it right back to you, what advantage are you trying to protect?
The bottom line is I picked a stick combination because I wanted too for the fun & challenge of racing a stick. I'm pretty sure that mentality would apply to the other stick racers. But I just fail to see why there should be any spread on indexes. The stick has numerous gear choices available just as the auto does, both OEM & aftermarket. I'm not even going to go what can be done to adjust a stocker trans for different leave times but we all know the technology is available and in use. Convertors and clutches have evolved tremendously in the last
10+ years. I've seen the significant improvements of putting a T-200 in place of a trick T-350, well over a tenth just as I've seen the significant improvements offered by new design / lighter clutch assemblies, also good for over a tenth. My point is not to show partiallity to either transmission; both have made huge advances over the factory offerings used in years past.
The direction of NHRA has been to let the AHFS handle any disproportionate ET advantages. And "whoppin'" the throttle to scrubb off ET is not something you really want to do in a stick car in order to avoid the AHFS. That seems to be something the autos do with ease...and regularity.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Not sure what the relevance is of a race 2 years ago...:confused:

Superstock record comparrison
 

From NHRA.com a Comparrison of the stick vs. auto records in the "traditional" Superstock classes. I'll do Stock later.
Not only do the auto's seem to ET considerably quicker, the auto's seem to MPH considerably faster!
In fact, you'll see only two classes which have records on both sides have quicker ET's & MPH with a stick over auto, both held by Fords (428 & 289)!


SS/A 8.95 150.14 ------------------------SS/AA 8.67 153.68
SS/B 8.97 148.41 ------------------------SS/BA 8.86 150.37
SS/C 9.85 0.00 Minimum--------------- SS/CA 8.99 & SS/CA 148.46
SS/D 10.00 0.00 Minimum-------------- SS/DA 9.12 144.74
SS/E 10.05 0.00 Minimum-------------- SS/EA 9.32 143.40
SS/F 10.15 0.00 Minimum--------------SS/FA 9.60 134.91
SS/G 9.57 139.38 -----------------------SS/GA 9.67 135.83
SS/H 9.96 133.96------------------------SS/HA 9.63 136.50
SS/I 9.93 135.11 ------------------------SS/IA 9.54 137.50
SS/J 10.60 0.00 Minimum ------------- SS/JA 9.93 131.64
SS/K 10.31 127.51 ---------------------SS/KA 10.12 & SS/KA 0.00
SS/L 10.13 129.51 ---------------------SS/LA 10.52 & SS/LA 0.00
SS/M 11.40 0.00 Minimum ------------SS/MA 10.80 122.50
SS/N 11.75 0.00 Minimum ------------SS/NA 11.00 118.82
SS/O 12.00 0.00 Minimum ------------ SS/OA 11.62 115.46
SS/P 12.16 111.56----------------------SS/PA 11.55 113.91

Stock records stick vs. auto
 

So here are the Stock records from NHRA.com. Clearly, there does not seem to be an ET or MPH advantage to the stick cars. Auto's dominate both the ET & MPH records (of the classes contested on both sides).


AA/S 9.75 136.61 -----------------------AA/SA 9.71 134.24
A/S 10.75 0.00 Minimum---------------A/SA 9.78 & A/SA 0.00
B/S 11.00 0.00 Minimum --------------B/SA 10.16 129.82
C/S 10.40 128.11 ----------------------C/SA 10.33 & C/SA 0.00
D/S 10.56 & D/S 125.56 -------------D/SA 10.42 & D/SA 125.83
E/S 11.16 119.28-----------------------E/SA 10.49 123.94
F/S 10.89 119.40 --------------------- F/SA 10.69 122.86
G/S 10.98 121.12 --------------------- G/SA 11.80 0.00 Minimum
H/S 11.53 115.96 ----------------------H/SA 11.95 0.00 Minimum
I/S 11.18 119.32 -----------------------I/SA 11.26 116.40
J/S 11.46 114.82--------------------- -J/SA 11.37 & J/SA 114.07
K/S 11.59 112.62---------------------- K/SA 11.57 113.80
L/S 11.90 109.57 ---------------------L/SA 11.51 113.09
M/S 12.00 109.24---------------------M/SA 11.61 112.98
N/S 12.11 108.75--------------------- N/SA 12.80 0.00 Minimum
O/S 12.25 106.41--------------------- O/SA 12.15 108.71
P/S 12.39 108.58--------------------- P/SA 12.17 109.72
Q/S 13.45 0.00 Minimum------------ Q/SA 12.82 & Q/SA 101.53
R/S 13.75 0.00 Minimum -----------R/SA 13.01 103.14
T/S 14.20 0.00 Minimum-------------T/SA 13.27 98.77
U/S 13.94 96.09----------------------- U/SA 13.77 95.96
V/S 14.45 94.24----------------------- V/SA 14.56 92.21
W/S 15.83 82.27----------------------W/SA 16.45 0.00 Minimum

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Look at the SS/L and LA records. No difference there. I've also watched a couple SS/K cars run low 10.1's in less then desireable air. Robin Brown went in the 9's in good air. Advantage stick cars. Also remember Mike Cates' Comet SS/M car going in the 10's many years ago. Not many autos run in the 10's now unless the air is good. Again a lot of the preceived advantage of the automatic cars is the sheer volume of cars. Especially in SS. There aren't many stick SS cars and several run them just to run them.

Rick Ryan

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Speaking of records, look at how many are at the minimum.
Using them as a comparison now is moot. They do not reflect the real world performance capabilities.
NHRA has taken all the fun and glory out of setting them so you see far fewer of the go fast guys chasing them these days.

As little as 5 years ago the records page was full and then you had a real comparison of stick vs auto.
Most of the stick records were as far or farther under the index as the autos.

In the 70's, as I recall the stick records in S/SS were a full second faster than the autos.
Jerry Ryan can probably back me up on this.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

How many of the records were set at altitude tracks? There are many variables in place. It's not really an apple to apple comparison.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

What I'm hearing is different ways to slice and dice the statistics in order to favor a particular objective. What happened in the 70's, and what track these records were set at is really a moot point. The difference in equipment is vastly different. And the 2 records set by SS cars were both at Tucson, an altitude track. I suppose some would want to discredit those runs thereby leaving ZERO national records in SS set quicker than their auto trans competitors!

The discussion is NHRA indexes and the standard is the NHRA national record. The standard is not what you watched your buddy or competitor do at the track one fine day, it's what is official and accepted by NHRA. And in looking at both the Stock and Superstock records it's pretty clear the sticks do not deserve a penalty with regards to the index.

Stock has (2) stick records of 14 contested on both sides or 15%.
Superstock has (2) stick records of 8 contested on both sides or 25%.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

How about in Super Stock Modified where the automatic cars get up to a 250lbs. weight break and run on the same index as the stick cars. Every record in Super Stock Modified is held by automatic cars.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

The quickest SS/AM car in the country (Scott Gove) runs a stick.

A good comparison is the SS/AH cars of the Westcotts. At a recent test session Jr. went 8.50 @ 155 with the auto and Sr. went 8.51 @ 158 with the stick. Same track, same day, same air. I know that the 4-speed is 40 lbs lighter but it also doesn't use the radial.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Jeff,
The records are not the standard in all cases. Look at Nitro Joes stats over the last year. There are a few runs that are faster then current records. The SS/K record is a pefect example. The record is about .40 slower then it could be. Records mean nothing to NHRA so most don't worry about setting them. In several classes the fastest run of the year is within a .10 but what do you do about the classes that are .2-.4 faster.
Nobody has answered the question what do you do with the couple classes where the stick is at an incredible advantage. I run both stick and automatics so I don't think I have an agenda one way or the other. Our stick car doesn't have really any of the newest tricks yet it's capable of running with the majority of the automatic cars in the same class.
Last year there were more SS/JA cars then there were stick cars in all of the traditional SS classes. Yet between SS and GT classes nine times the stick car had a faster best actual ET. Now these were all done in different weather conditions and altitudes but that gives you a more broad persceptive then looking at the record page. It is feasable currently in several classes but you can't make the assumption that sticks and autos run the same in A/S so let's combine all of them.
Plus tell me this if they were to combine classes what do you do with cars that either didn't come as a stick or those that didn't come as an auto? Personally I'd love to make my Olds a stick car.

Rick Ryan

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

I think if you want to run a stick (which I think is cool) then run a stick or if you think that an auto is more suited to you then run an auto. Enough with the "rule change of the week". If you want to combine them then let the stick have the magnetic release and the auto the full lock up converter. And let both SPEND MORE MONEY.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Regarding Stock,
First off, I never said "combine classes".
Second, I never suggested a rule change, I suggested parity on the indexes. That's not a rule change.
I really don't know how to make it any easier to understand.

JR brought up SS/JA. Coincedentely I was talking to my SS/J buddy Rob Youngblood tonight. He recently raced and ran the same ET as Don Little in SS/JA. Don Little qualified #1, Youngblood qualified #9. Another racer commented to Youngblood "how can you run the same time and be 8 positions apart?" Youngblood said "because there is a two tenths difference on the index!"
I think that example pretty much sums it up. Two cars both on a 11# weight break and one gets a two tenths advantage by running an automatic trans. Since SS Engine Guy brought up money, tell us how much money Youngblood would have to spend to find the extra 40 HP needed to obtain that #1 qualifying position? I'll betcha you would like that customer!

And yes, I would be all for Superstock (not Stock) allowing a magnetic clutch release to compete against the trans-brakes. The performance of the stick car would not change ANY so there would be no need for allowing lock-up converters. While not offering a performance advantage, the stick cars with a clutch release would be more deadly on the line. And I guess that would frighten those with trans-brakes that have unlimited adjustments quite similar in application to a delay box. And I suppose that's where the "leave the rules alone" mantra starts kicking in!

JR,
I hate to tell you but every run in Nitro Joe's is not neccessarily a legal run down the track. A record is set, authenticated and published by NHRA. And if a racer feels the need to build a vehicle which will run under a record he should be more than happy to prove the validity of his runs.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Are you guys for real?!?! Go by the NHRA records and not take into account where or what the air was? Factored track or non-factored track?!?! These are all factors for all cars. Stick, auto do not matter it is a choice. When i raced I ran G/Sa at Pomona and went 11:19 in F/Sa. Pomona is a good track with great air in the winter. I go to Boise and add 60 pounds to run G/Sa still 40 heavy and run within .oo1 of G/record at 10.99. My car was manhandled in class several times by several cars. These are facts with run slips to prove. !!!!

Get off the box and leave the class alone!!!

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

I am sorry for using "combine them" in my post. Please disregard the previous post and insert in place of combine: ( achieve a level playing field by changing indexes). I shouldn't have even posted anything to begin with since this dosen't affect/effect me at all. In my error, I think that I was thinking that some were suggesting that the indexes between sticks and autos should be the same. Sorry for my confusion.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Gee I have no idea of how much money someone would have to spend in order to pick up 40 hp. in order to qualify the same in that senario. I guess it depends on how scienced out the car is and how long it has been thrashed. Somewhere between $40.00 and $40,000 in the engine compartment I'm guessing. Chassis would be a little higher. Might be something as simple as the brakes dragging.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

OK, so throw the record runs out with the trash. But I really don't know how to compare performance with any substance. Be that as it may, it all boils down to not seeing one argument made that can support there being any difference in the comparative indexes; other than there are those wanting to protect their advantages. I'm not suggesting an advantage for one group over the other, and am not suggesting a rule change. Just simply suggesting equality.

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

We race based on elapsed times and the current records do not show an advantage to the stick cars. In fact, most Super Stock records favor the automatic.

As I see it, the largest advantage the automatic has is the ability to buy or build a proven combination that has been tested and enhanced by many, many more racers and engine builders. When you run a stick, you are almost alone on the island with regards to camshaft, clutch, and tire choices; and yes it's all different.

In short, more advances will be realized with a larger group testing and enhancing a combination. I hope there is no debate with this statement.

To be fair, maybe the stick could run faster than their automatic counterparts. Maybe not. We just need a larger test group to prove it. Until then, let's even them up and see where we are.

A final note... Sometimes an implied consensus is interpreted on these forums based on the volume of posts that support one side of a discussion or another. I would hope that the imbalance of stick vs. auto racers is taken into account.

Mike

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Evan, you know I am a stick guy, but holy crap! Does that mean you would go 1.60 under with an automatic in your car? All you Ford dudes ought to start building one....

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Sorry Jeff, I thought the whole discussion was stick index vs. auto. Seems to me that Evan has a very good combination and I doubt if any automatics can run with him ... great job Evan ...

Sat, 4 Oct 2008, 11:08 AM

Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Final Order

ATCO, N.J. - Final order after 3 rounds of qualifying in Stock Eliminator at the NHRA Lucas Oil Drag Racing Series, Northeast Division, LODRS 1-7 presented by PC Richard & Son, GMC and Pontiac:

Psn--Num--Class-Driver, Home Town, Machine-----------------ET---Index---(+/-)

1 1798 H/S Evan Smith, Linden NJ, '93 Cobra 10.903 12.30 -1.397
2 1021 J/SA Gene Monahan, Brockton MA, '90 Formula 11.377 12.75 -1.373
3 1904 BF/S Dennis Chapman, Toms River NJ, '88 Shadow 13.605 14.95 -1.345
4 1137 I/SA Cecil Frazier, Canton MA, '91 Camaro 11.265 12.60 -1.335
5 1002 B/SA Jeffrey Bardekoff, Commack NY, '64 Fury 10.238 11.55 -1.312
6 1773 F/SA Dustan Lowell, Kensington NH, '72 Duster 10.842 12.15 -1.308
7 1534 G/SA Henry Kunz, Farmingdale NY, '69 Nova 10.999 12.30 -1.301
8 1614 B/SA Barry Parker, Southwick MA, '69 Camaro 10.256 11.55 -1.294
9 1239 H/SA Don Quinn, Howell NJ, '78 Nova 11.157 12.45 -1.293
10 198 J/SA Steve Szupka, Willow Grove PA, '85 Camaro 11.461 12.75 -1.289
11 1634 Q/SA Briane Philbrick, Vineland ON, '76 Monza 12.822 14.10 -1.278
12 1134 I/SA Tom Kreeber, Rensselaer NY, '67 Barracuda 11.327 12.60 -1.273
13 1568 K/SA Leo Niedermeier Jr, Monroe CT, '74 Camaro 11.689 12.95 -1.261
14 1109 G/SA John Gray, Hudson MA, '72 Nova 11.044 12.30 -1.256
15 1152 B/S Ed Bednaz, Terryville CT, '69 Nova 10.245 11.50 -1.255
16 1547 E/SA Jack Matyas, Bethlehem PA, '04 GTO 10.748 12.00 -1.252
17 1013 A/SA David Ficacci, E. Hanover NJ, '69 Camaro 10.048 11.30 -1.252
18 1570 B/SA Frank Bialas, Linden NJ, '70 GTX 10.310 11.55 -1.240
19 1499 B/SA Jim Boudreau, Tewksbury MA, '69 Camaro 10.311 11.55 -1.239
20 1150 H/SA Russell Linke, Old Bridge NJ, '85 Camaro 11.214 12.45 -1.236
21 1788 H/SA Bruce Noland, Leesburg VA, '73 Camaro 11.216 12.45 -1.234

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Scott Gove is the quickest SS/AM on the planet, but Paul Ricci is the record holder at 8.19@164.55 with an automatic. He set it at the D-1 race at Atco this past weekend. Scott Gove has the potential to be the second SSer to run in the 7s but he was at Atco and didn't set the record. I don't know if he had problems but he didn't get the record. If he is at the Dutch Classic and the air is good; watch out!
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

Interesting comparison; for the last 2 years the Westcotts have been trying to get Sr's stick car to 60' and 330' as well as Jr's automatic. It has always been obvious that Sr's car ran great mph, but Jr's car ran quicker ET. Now Jr's car is up for sale. and he is building a stick car. It took 2 years to get the stick car to ET well enough to convince the Westcotts to build a second stick car. I would think that this supports the premise that, with all other things being equal, the automatic is quicker and the stick is faster.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

Re: Stick vs. Auto index
 

I always thougnt that automatics had an weightbreak in modified classes,are they gone nowdays?