Stick vs. Auto index

[Jeff Lee]

Why the discrepancy between indexes in Stock with stick vs. auto?
The total difference when comparing 1/4 mile indexes is a whopping 2.00 seconds favoring the auto over the stick combinations. I've always wondered why, especially in this day and age of some pretty sophisticated transmissions, convertors and clutches. I have to believe that with the allowance of a metric 200, 904 TF or C4 in lieu of the factory offering of T400/350, 727 TF & C6 and even the allowance of a Jerico or Liberty in lieu of the T-10, M-21/22 or Top-Loader that the performance issues of yesterday are no longer worth consideration.

Some of the classes are seperated quite a bit while others are not. There doesn't seem to be a pattern as you go down the list. You'll find no differences in some of the lower classes such as L & M then the differences appear again. Look at R, T & U. So the normal argument about the little engines favoring a stick don't seem supported.
I ask that as I've heard of some racers willing to convert to a stick application but have issues that they could loose performance in relationship to the index. That's not even taking into account the lack of any delay device in the stick applications compareable to what is offered to the auto racers. And why shouldn't the stick racer have the same reaction time tools as available to the auto racers?

I heard rumor that one of the racer representatives would not accept that there were any differences between the indexes. So hear it is, for those not aware. The total difference is 2.000 seconds.

I'm looking for constructive comments and may even follow with a poll after everybody has had time to present their opinions.



Stock Indexes
Last Update: 10/7/2008
Class 1/4 Mile 1/8 Mile -------------------------------difference
AA/S 10.90 07.03 ------- AA/SA 10.90 07.03 -------.000
A/S 11.25 07.24 --------- A/SA 11.30 07.27 ------- .050
B/S 11.50 07.39 --------- B/SA 11.55 07.42 ------- .050
C/S 11.65 07.47 --------- C/SA 11.70 07.50 ------- .050
D/S 11.80 07.57 --------- D/SA 11.85 07.60 ------- .050
E/S 11.95 07.65 --------- E/SA 12.00 07.68 ------- .050
F/S 12.10 07.74 --------- F/SA 12.15 07.76 ------- .050
G/S 12.20 07.79 --------- G/SA 12.30 07.86 ------- .100
H/S 12.30 07.86 --------- H/SA 12.45 07.94 ------- .150
I/S 12.50 07.97 ---------- I/SA 12.60 08.03 --------- .100
J/S 12.65 08.05 --------- J/SA 12.75 08.11 --------- .100
K/S 12.85 08.18 --------- K/SA 12.95 08.22 -------- .100
L/S 13.00 08.26 --------- L/SA 13.00 08.26 --------- .000
M/S 13.15 08.33 -------- M/SA 13.15 08.33 ---------.000
N/S 13.25 08.40 -------- N/SA 13.30 08.43 --------- .050
O/S 13.40 08.48 -------- O/SA 13.45 08.51 --------- .050
P/S 13.65 08.62 -------- P/SA 13.75 08.68 ----------.100
Q/S 13.95 08.79 -------- Q/SA 14.10 08.88 ----------.150
R/S 14.25 08.96 -------- R/SA 14.35 09.02 ----------.100
T/S 14.70 09.21 --------- T/SA 14.70 09.21 ----------.000
U/S 14.95 09.34 -------- U/SA 15.15 09.45 ----------.200
V/S 15.55 09.68 -------- V/SA 15.80 09.81 ----------.250
W/S 16.70 10.35 ------- W/SA 16.95 10.51----------.250

I'll follow up with a Superstock comparrison.

[Gary Parker]

Lets see, stick cars (4 speed) automatics 3. In high gear converters slip, clutches lock up. Also,there are many more gear ratio's avalible for standards. Just my thouights. Gary

[Joe DeMarzo]

I agree with Gary, look at Top Stock and Junior Stock in D-1. Winner are usually the stick cars. Can control the starting line better (if you know clutches) and it locks up top end (check out MPH). Stick cars are more efficient

[Paul Dilcher]

Who cares ?

[Adger Smith]

The index is what the AHFS provides. For a real comparison of performance look at the records vs index vs stick & auto.
See any surprises?

[phberg]

Has anybody looked at the ratio of Stick to Auto entries at any event? If the stick has an advantage, don't you think more people would jump on that advantage. While the stick technology is much improved it still isn't as consistent as the auto. Perhaps clutchless shifting would even the playing field.
Paul Berg I/S 2664

[Roger K Fain]

Jeff,
The disparity in Super Stock is much greater, i.e. in our class SS/M 1/4 mi. index is 11.90 and SS/MA is 12.15. That's like cutting a .002 light against a .252 and getting to the finish line at the same time.

[Michael Beard]

Anything that would promote more poepl building stick cars is a bonus, in my opinion! Stick cars are cool.

I would imagine that sticks and autos could be combined, with weight breaks as necessary... if done intelligently. (wait, nevermind!)

Pure Stock and Crate Motors have them combined. There are a handful of stick cars in Pure Stock, but I've only ever seen one Crate Motor car with a stick... '55 Chevy if I recall. That was the coolest thing ever!

[Evan Smith]

Gary, Joe,

I would like to voice an opinion from the other side of the fence: Over the last few years automatics have really benefited from the advent of the ProTrans (or similar), Radial tires (which don't work on a stick) and improved converter technology. This has amounted to gains in the neighborhood of .2-.3 tenths for the average racer, yet there has been no such advance in technology for stick racers. Clutches are better than they used to be, but not to the tune of .2 tenths.

I can't speak for Top Stock, but in Jr. Stock, Bruce, Ficacci Jr., Henry, Lowell and I all run close. Ficacci gets about a 100-lb. break with the stick (over his old combo) because the combo is factored softer than with the auto. Not a stick deal, more a factor deal. It's also hard to compare an entire class based on a handful of cars. Steve Ficacci Sr. has all but owned Top Stock, but his driving is amazing, as is the performance of his car.

There is no way that stick cars are .10-.20 quicker than their automatic counterparts on average, as the indexes would suggest. Of course this could be argued all day and night, but the numbers don't lie.

Evan

[Fred Popov]

Looking at this year's Indi qualifying, I don't see much of an advantage for the stick stockers. I looked at the classes that have at least three stick cars and compared them to the top three automatics in that class. In some cases the automatics are the faster cars. In D and E the fastest car is the one with the slushbox....

3533 A/S Brett McFarland '68 Camaro 10.159 -1.091**
1441 A/S Richard Adkins '67 Shelby 10.209 -1.041
3602 A/S Jason McCormack '67 Plymouth 10.230 -1.020
1308 A/S Ralph Porpora '69 Camaro 10.285 -0.965
1681 A/S Tom Baird '69 Camaro 10.321 -0.929
10 A/S Troy Henderson '68 Camaro 10.352 -0.898
4455 A/SA Ronnie West '70 GTX 10.205 -1.095**
T700 A/SA Paul Cannan '69 Camaro 10.232 -1.068
1990 A/SA David Barton '65 Coronet 10.262 -1.038


4448 D/S John Duzac '67 Camaro 10.722 -1.078**
162 D/S Tim Abbazia '62 Corvette 10.829 -0.971
751 D/S Ben Wenzel '67 Camaro 10.864 -0.936
5009 D/SA Scott Burton '71 Formula 10.708 -1.142**
11 D/SA Lee Zane '98 Firebird 10.770 -1.080
256 D/SA Amy Faulk '01 Firebird 10.797 -1.053


2217 E/S Brian Rogers '69 Camaro 10.975 -0.975**
1165 E/S Dean Cook '71 Mustang 11.000 -0.950
3272 E/S Martin Jeltema '72 Mustang 11.136 -0.814
31 E/SA Greg Hill '71 Camaro 10.925 -1.075**
2237 E/SA Butch Payne '97 Firebird 10.932 -1.068
7980 E/SA Steve Wann '74 Dart 10.973 -1.027


54 I/S Steve Brack '87 Camaro 11.380 -1.120**
3163 I/S Jim Schaechter '66 Nova 11.449 -1.051
1168 I/S Dean Cook II '95 Mustang 11.582 -0.918
1021 I/SA Gene Monahan '90 Formula 11.454 -1.146**
3277 I/SA Rick Winchester '73 Camaro 11.552 -1.048
3089 I/SA David Morgan '90 Trans Am 11.554 -1.046