Drive By Wire
Drive by wire is a safety issue, remember Toyota, and it is way to easy to cheat. Run tracing is easy. Traction controle you bet. Foot against the floor and only 60% throttle for first 1.296 seconds. Almost forgot where do I hook up the return spring, so I dont go flying of the end of the track at wide open throttle.
NHRA change the rule : No Drive By Wire. |
Re: Drive By Wire
I'm glad that you brought this up! Didn't the Rule Book address this issue at one point in time? Something along the line of there having to be a positive conection between the gas pedal and the throttle body or carb? I seem to remember it back when throttlestops were first turning up because of some real hokey stuff being tried.
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Gotta love the NHRA! Larry, 2009 Rule Book page 253, 1:12 Throttle. Would YOU please read it and tell me what you think? I'm reading that the CJs ain't legal!
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neither is a C5 or C6 vette, or a new caddy. NHRA would have to approve alternate throttle bodies, as to the best of my knowledge no one makes a kit to retrofit a fly by wire tb to a cable operated
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Didn't Matusek have an issue with their Mustang when they WANTED to & DID convert their setup to a throttle cable instead of a wire and tech bounced them because it wasn't a factory set up? They did it for the safety of the setup if I remember correctly.
Unk |
Re: Drive By Wire
UMM leaving off the top.. Can when say timers???
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Holy crap another can of worms, how will they sweep that under the carpet?? Rule Change to follow I bet !
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Re: Drive By Wire
Drive by wire is covered in the 2011 NHRA rulebook. It can be found in the STOCK Section 10A, page 4 under FUEL INJECTION. The 2nd sentence reads as follows;
"If OEM throttle body (s) was equipped with electronic throttle control (i.e., drive by wire), the throttle body (s) may be adapted to mechanical throttle linkage if an aftermarket OEM-type electronic-fuel-injection system is used." Anyone wanting to download the 2011 NHRA rulebook can do so by going to NHRA.com and click on the archive section. When the archive page comes up, scroll down to 11/17/10 for the rulebook. BTW the rulebook download is free to members only. Travis Miller (Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.) |
Re: Drive By Wire
The throttle position has the least effect on the new cars. That from someone who knows.
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All the Mopars have a 4bbl type throttle that is progressive lingage. Do the Fords have an oblong/round Throttle Body? They have effect, but not near the massive things most people think.
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It's not what you guys seem to think. The OEM software does not have delays, nor any way to make it wop wop the throttle at the finish line. You would have to write your own operating system. No grade school kid is going to do that. There are opening rate tables to help control intake noise. You can make the throttle open less that 100% with the pedal all the way down but that is about it. You can not alter it going down the track. Some of this is as far out as the fuel injection storys going around.
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Anyone else remember the infamous 'Willy Raymond' thread a few years ago? He was claiming all kinds of crap that was being done and/or could be done with electronics/GPS/etc.. Was going to build a car and show it to the NHRA to get his competiton privileges back.
Thread was like 100+ pages and well over a million hits. And it was all pure bullshirt. |
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Re: Drive By Wire
Does everyone really believe there are no Matty Boxes and Racer's Eye Tree Readers out there? I'm sure they will work with any kind or year of car. To me, tear down for cams, carb, cc's etc. seems crazy when the mechanical things may win an occasional heads up run when the electronic stuff can help win any round. I'm not saying mechanical tear down is not important, it just pales in comparison to the electronic checks.
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I don't know....all I know is I can take my Ford Expedition in the driveway and floor in in neutral or park and it will only go to about 2500 RPM and it makes lots of "whup whup" sounds...
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Can't imagine if something is done on one part of a program it can't be made to be done on another part of the program. Oh, dang it! Just fell off the turnip truck again!
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Re: Drive By Wire
Jeff, that's a rev limiter. There is one for each gear. Rev limiters for park, neutral and reverse are normally set much lower than forward gears. The computer is cutting the fuel injectors off & on over and over. Makes that wop wop sound.
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Re: Drive By Wire
Stupid questin but don't some of the FI cars even have a laptop in them hooked up when they run?
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Not supposed to. If you have time to screw with a lap top during a pass, you have a really slow car! lol
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He said not to talk about the starting line incident in Noble. He is still in therapy. :D Don |
Re: Drive By Wire
Your buddy is defective, you know that right? :D
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Yes I do! That is why we get along so well. :) Don |
Re: Drive By Wire
Does anyone think that Kevin Cour added 900 lbs to his car to slow it down .9 of a second to run Fletcher second round? According to "Live Timing" Cour was on a high 9.60's run @ 138+ Mph when he ran Norton first round. Second round Cour dials 10.57 and runs 10.562. Compare the two runs and '60 ft. is only down .096 on the on 10.562 run. Maybe they took 90 hp. from the engine on tune up, if they did it would not 60 ft. with a .1 of a second from the high 9.60s run. What I think happened the ECM was programmed to open throttle, at let's say 75% at the hit and run at, let's pick a number, 57% the rest of the run. His 60ft was quicker on the 10.562 run than on the 10.531 run in qualifying.
If NHRA would change the rule to "No drive by wire", a lot of the temptation would be removed. Anytime you have a computer controlling the air supply to the engine, the driver is just along for the ride. The fix would be a cable from the accelerator to the throttle shaft on one side and a throttle positioning sensor to tell the computer what it's position is. As opposed to programming the computer and letting it operate the throttle plates to trace a previous run. Billy, I read the 2009 rulebook and you are right. Either the Fords didn't go by the rules or NHRA turned a blind eye. For me personally, I want redundancy (a return spring) in closing the throttle. Just in case something goes wrong. |
Re: Drive By Wire
The 2011 Challenger V10 has removed the DBW throttle, in favor of manual bodies with a cable. Don't know if that was mandated or voluntarily done. I don't know what they are going to do about the 2012 Drag Pak.
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There is plenty to these new cars. That from a real old car guy. But the total adjustability is what makes them a little hard to duplicate. I could go into the detail about Throttle Position, Timing Change going down the track (did I say MSD Digital), fuel pressure (critical to a EFI, a carb only needs supply) gliches, gloches, etc. Dan Fletcher went back to a carb car. Now for fact not fiction. My ss EFI 360 motor makes 10 more hp and 12 more tqe with a race 850, than a 1000 cfm Throttle Body and Fast EFI system no matter how you adjust them. A comp motor of say 850 hp will probably make 20 more. I was surprised so i confirmed that with several guru's and suppliers around the nation. Seems starting the atomization in the venturi has a better effect than injecting solid fuel at the bottom of the runner. The EFI systems of today evolved from the need for EFI on factory cars because of driveablity and emissions especially in view of the unleaded and weak fuel we run driving around. Total adjustablilty, such as the factory system that adjusts timing and fuel in microseconds makes a car run well. I think we have about 100 sensors that inform the motor what is happening while driving. At wot, most of these sensors are ignored. I'm lost. I quit for now.
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Re: Drive By Wire
Larry, you are mistaken about taking power out effecting 60' times. If you use an MSD Digital 7 Programable box you simply back up the timing in the upper gears. That way there is also no effect on your lights, like a lot of weight would. You can do that to older carbureted cars also. No rocket science involved.
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With a drive by wire system, this is very doable. But to make it accurate the car would need some sort of a real time feed back to track the car as it progress down track. GPS would work, they are getting faster all the time, but what most automotive company's use for brake testing is a optical sensor that bounce's light of the pavement (they use to use a fifth wheel for this input) and the programing for this kind of a system would not be that complicated.....
That being said, in my humble opinion......just by the win column on the new cars that are using drive by wire.....it doesn't appear that anybody is using it. maybe Nitro Joe could shed a little light on the stats for new cars winning rounds or races |
Re: Drive By Wire
Larry
I could be wrong but I read the 2009 rule different that you are. It does not rule out DBW. It states that "electronics, pneumatics, hydraulics, or any other device may in noway effect the initial throttle operation.". That is followed by DBW. The key word is initial, or first, operation. That required initial operation is the drivers foot pressing the pedal. After that motion there is no rule barring electronic, pneumatic or hydraulic. The same rule paragraph even speaks of the use of hydraulic specifically. That said, what is not allowed except in the Super classes is the "use of....electronics to modulate the throttle after initial launch.". There is the problem, how to prove that is or isn't being done. As Ed points out, you can slow the car with the MSD , or I imagine with the on board computer, just not electronically with the throttle AFTER the initial hit. Having 100% pedal being 100% or 80% or 60% throttle position is legal, but you have to pick one and use it the whole run. Timing is a different story. The key will be how the 2011 rule reads after the January revisions. Speak now to NHRA. As usual, my disclaimer. "I could be wrong". |
Re: Drive By Wire
I think the point that needs to be made is that when using a drive by wire, the computer is running the throttle plate via a DC motor on the side of the throttle body. True in stock form, the computer uses inputs like the APP (accelerator pedal positition) to determine where it wants to drive the throttle plate position to. But it also looks at many, many other inputs to determine not only what the driver wants for throttle, but what the vehicle needs for throttle. On a drive by wire system, the PCM gives you the throttle IT thinks you need, not always what you want.
The fear is that the PCM can be used to drive the throttle plate in throttle stop like manner. As stated earlier, if you need to slow the car down, program the PCM to only open the throttle plate 70%. No popping, no banging, no fancy ignition box, no fancy tach, just down on power. Or perhaps you cannot cut a light. Program the PCM to open the throttle 1.5 seconds after the APP sees you smash the gas on the top bulb. I am no computer programmer. But I have been a Chrysler tech for 23 years. I am well versed on these systems. Personally, I believe it would be very easy for someone like me, who knows how the factory stuff works, to team up with a good computer guy and make a controller that could do this stuff. |
Re: Drive By Wire
As far as DBW and safety is concerned Toyota didn't have the proper defaults in their programming to eliminate a possible open throttle failure.....most OEM's run DUAL TPS sensors on the throttle blades, one to follow the throttle position as to the pedal position and the other to verify that this indeed happened and if not to throw the engine into a "limp" mode to allow control until it can be repaired.....it would not be difficult, as some have mentioned, to program this system to do anything you would like to try and the best part is it would be undetectable and if properly done impossible to find.....sort of like a "ghost in the machine"....
As a journeyman industrial machine builder, I have seen and used some really interesting and versatile micro sensors, software, and inovative programming techniques to accomplish many issues relating to automated industrial machines.....and now that sensors, computers and software are being used to control an automotive "machine".....good luck....the only limiting factor is ones imagination..... D L Rambo.... |
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First, you can move the pedal faster than the little motor moves the throttle blade(s), I get that compaint all the time from guys trying to cut lights when foot brakingate model DBW cars. Not a method you would want to use with a "1.5 second delay off the top bulb. Guys need to understand that you can't just do that without a look-up table in the software for pedal response delay. (they do not exist in OEM ECUs) maybe with some aftermarket ECU, not the factory stuff. Getting a school kid to write something for a P.C. is one thing, a Ford, MOPAR or GM computer is another. Want to close the throttle at higher MPH or RPM? They do not contain look-up tables for that either. No look-up table for that? Then you can't make it do that. Guys throwing this stuff out obviously don't do this kind of work. I get some pretty silly requests, they seem to think it's the same as programming a P.C. No college or night writing an operating system for a Ford ECU so you could add all the look-up tables to do those things. Might get a Ford calibrator to have it done.
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