Iron Dukes??
 

What ever happened to the Pontiac iron duke engines? They seemed to be the "ticket" for a 4 banger in comp back in the day. I used to enjoy watching a Pontiac T1000 with a iron duke and a glide get some wickes spots in IHRA superstock a decade and a half ago, anyone know where it went. Is anyone still racing one? Was the little Pontiac "out scienced" by the more modern 4 cylinder engines or were there issues with dependability or parts? Any responses are appreciated. Don Jackson

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Larry Nelson still has his T1000 but i don't think he's had it out for awhile.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

I built one back when they first came out, They had a special block and forged 3.25 crank and the one I had had the S.D. cast iron head. Later on guys in comp adapted the splayed valve Chev head to the S.D. block. I know some poeple are using a Gaerte block in comp now. Bob Michael.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Alyn Armstrong's opel GT was (is?) powered by an iron duke with a billet head he made.
Leave the line at 10,000 and shift at 10,500! (unless that was his extremely dry humor, never can tell)

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

I remember seeing one on a stand at a local speed shop and wondered why someone would build such a radical 4 banger...curious how many versions of the 'Iron Duke' there were, and which production cars they came in.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/a...2&d=1107985794

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...ain/25hemi.jpg

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

I am no expert (far from it!) but, I think that was the 4-cylinder engine that G.M. used for the first FWD X-cars, (Nova/Omaga/Ventura/Apollo) that were introduced in the early '80s.

It had the same bore-center spacing (4.4-inches) that the chevy small block (and, 4-and-6-cylinder Chevy II) engines had, so they probably used some of the same tooling to build it.

The upside was that Chevy V8 heads used the same bore-center spacing and I'd imagine, could be adapted, by moving the head bolts around...

But, Pontiac (remember THEM?) had a hi-po program for this little engine, and came up with a head that bolted on (aluminum) that was claimed to flow better than the Chevy stuff at the time.

For a pushrod 4-cylinder, this thing was about as good as it gets, IMHO...

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

The Iron Duke resurfaced as the Kansas Perf block ,still in use in Comp. Elim.with various cylinder heads on top,several pass through our shop.Bill C.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

the late Bob Wollett ran iron dukes in both the old Kathy's Clown Firebird he got from Stover and his new olds he raced before retiring. I know his son Jason has everything still. I have not talked to him since Bob passed away to see what he is going to do with everything.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Jason still has the cars and wants to race them someday. He has NO plans on selling them.http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/h...scan0001-2.jpg

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

GM went down this road several times a hair brain scheme to replace the Small Block Cheby with a 4 and V6 cylinders to be the engine of the future!

Pontiac = Iron Duke
Oldsmobile the Quad 4 (one year thier whole SEMA Show Display was based on this engine and they spent in excess $ 7 million on the Aero Tech)
Buick V6 (They spent close to a $100 million over 10 years
Cheby and the Tony Stewart Midget Engine a couple of years ago know just a boat anchor
Cheby and the Eco Tech 4 cylinder in Sport Compacts series at about $3.5 million for over 3 years

It sure has worked hasen't it?

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Larry Morgan campaigned a Pontiac Fiero powered with the Super Duty Iron Duke engine in Comp during his Sportsman racing days.

All the GM tooling was purchased by Kansas Racing products and you can still get the blocks and components to build an Iron Duke for racing.
Their block can be purchased with either a GM, Ford or Mopar part number and will accept different GM, Ford and Mopar cylinder heads.

http://www.kansasracingproducts.com/...cts/Notes.html

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Al Ackerman was comp champ in 2010 with an iron duke in his F/D. Jason
Coan is #1 at Indy with an iron duke in his F/ED. Armstrong has the opel with the duke back from Greco now thÃ*t Yediny is crewing for Jeggie-watch out, it was and will be fast. Lee Zane finished in the top 10 in comp twice with an Ackerman built iron duke in my car. And Phil Montief's first race car had an iron duke in it. Dukes rule.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Al Ackerman

http://www.dragracecentral.com/stori...0817-01681.JPG

http://www.dragracecentral.com/stori...1024-00338.jpg

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Isn't it the same engine with minor mods that came out in the 1962 Chevy II ?

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

No--first year for a 2.5L 151 Cu In engine was 1977--- it has been installed in millions of GM vehicles usually cars like Astre/Vega Nova/Fiero/S10 pick ups etc. etc--- largest car it was installed in was Camaro/Firebird in 82-84---the Super Duty 4 is a 151 in design only--- much beefier and totally performance oriented unlike the Stock 151 engines---

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Jason Coan...

http://www.dragracecentral.com/stori...0916-00990.JPG

http://www.dragracecentral.com/stori...0724-00224.JPG

http://www.dragracecentral.com/stori...0718-02514.JPG

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Ralph, they were probably hoping to copy Fords success with the formula ford series and also the 2.3 in mini stockcars. Really good motor so it's suprising it's not more popular/successful.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Lee Zane...

http://www.dragracecentral.com/stori...0743-04855.JPG

http://www.dragracecentral.com/stori...S1-3_LZANE.JPG

http://www.dragracecentral.com/stori.../0526-0097.jpg

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Actually, they are pretty much the same motor. The early ones didn't even have a cross flow head and looked just like the ChevyII motors.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

I always thought the early Chevy II motor was the same basic block as the later Iron Duke.....

Pontiacs used the Duke and I changed a lot of blown exhaust manifold gaskets....The first ones in about 1977 had both intake and exhaust manifolds on the drivers side. Seemed to me like the heavy weight hanging on one side was making the maniofld gaskets fail.....
The next model year had the "crossflow" head......New and improved.....Right......

Boats used that 4 banger a lot......Mercruiser 120 I think it was....

I have seen some small standby generators that had the same basic GM 4 banger......and the castings usually say Hecho in Mexico

Generator builders used many common GM and Ford engines long after they were not used in cars anymore.....

Big and small block Chevs.....and Fords.

Add a small turbo and boost the HP for greater output.....

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

The NHRA bent over backwards to ensure the success of the Iron Dukes in Modified Eliminator racing in several different ways: They made the Modified Compact a class like Pro Stock... 2,350 pounds and..... 151 cubic inches. No pounds-per-cubic inch. That "formula" just HAPPENED to fit the Iron Duke to a "T." The Ford engine (2,300 c.c.) was only 140 cubic inches and would need to be stroked ($$$$$$$$$$$$) to get the 151 cubic inches, discouraging a lot of potential Ford racers. When you've only got 151 cubic inches to work with, you can't afford to give any of 'em away...

The current rule book page, at the time, that described the requirements for a legal engine in a Modified Compact-classed race car, stipulated that the car had to have the original engine. The Pontiac T-1000 was a re-badged Chevy Chevette, a car that had its own engine. The T-1000 that Larry Nelson used to dominate the class never came with an Iron Duke, or anything like it. It came with a Chevette engine.

NHRA gave Pontiac the T-1000/Iron Duke combination under the "corporate engine" umbrella. Nobody else had a chance.

Another factory "GIMMEE."

No disrespect to Larry Nelson; he just took advantage of what was legal. Smart!!!

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

No, no ,no! C'mon Bill, only ford has EVER received a gimme with the cobra! Everyone KNOWS that poor gm never received ANY love from nhra........oops, I accidently hit the sarcasm button! LOL!

Like they say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

The same happened when the engine was used in a Firebird in Modified Compact. The rules stipulated "No Sports Cars Allowed". :rolleyes:

I called Danny and and asked him if someone could run certain body styles in the class and he said "No" because they were Sports Cars.

So when I brought up the Firebird body, he said it was not a Sports Car; that the only Sports car GM had was the Corvette... :confused:

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Is a Mustang a sports car?

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Nope, pony car.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Pontiac was a major sponsor at that time...Do you see a pattern here?

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Iron Duke came out in the Oldsmobile days not Pontiac they were just a step child in those days.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Where do you see the difference?

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

The Iron Duke (also called the 2500, 151, Pontiac 2.5, Cross Flow, and Tech IV, though the decal on the air filter assemblies actually reads "4 Tech") was a 2.5 L (150.8 cu in) I4 piston engine. All Iron Dukes were built by Pontiac beginning in 1977 and ending in 1993. After this time, the GM 2.2 L OHV 4-cylinder replaced it across the entire lineup of vehicles that offered it.

This 151 was also used by American Motors (AMC) starting in 1980, as the base engine option in the RWD Spirit and Concord, and continuing in both cars through 1982. The AWD (4x4) Eagle carried the 151 as standard equipment for 1981, and carried it midway through the 1983 model year. It was also available (as the Hurricane) in economy model Jeep CJs. AMC replaced the Iron Duke 2.5L I4 with a 150cid Inline-4 of their own, derived from their evergreen sixes.
The Iron Duke is often confused with Chevrolet's Stovebolt-derived 153 from the 1960s Chevy II, but the engines are entirely different - the Iron Duke's intake manifold is on the passenger side, as opposed to the driver side.
Applications:

• 1977 Pontiac Astre
• 1977–1980 Pontiac Sunbird
• 1978–1980 Chevrolet Monza, Oldsmobile Starfire
• 1980–1982 AMC Concord
• 1980–1982 AMC Spirit
• 1980–1983 Jeep CJ
• 1980–1984 Oldsmobile Omega, Pontiac Phoenix
• 1980–1985 Buick Skylark, Chevrolet Citation
• 1981–1983 AMC Eagle
• 1982–1986 Chevrolet Camaro, Pontiac Firebird
• 1982–1989 Chevrolet Celebrity
• 1982–1991 Pontiac 6000
• 1982–1992 Buick Century, Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
• 1984–1988 Pontiac Fiero
• 1985–1987 Chevrolet S-10 Blazer, GMC S-15 Jimmy
• 1985–1993 Chevrolet S-10, GMC S-15/Sonoma
• 1985–1990 Chevrolet Astro, GMC Safari
• 1985–1987 Buick Somerset
• 1985–1991 Pontiac Grand Am, Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais
• 1986–1991 Buick Skylark
• 1987–1994 Grumman LLV (USPS delivery vehicle)
• 1990–1992 Chevrolet Lumina

More written here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Iron_Duke_engine

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

bob wollet was a great guy i use to race ihra with him he almost always qualified number 1 he was a stand up guy have nothing but good to say about him that is a awsome car he has

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Maybe I'm wrong but I think the duke has been mistaken for the quad 4.
anyone remember the quad 442.
Didn't the production duke engine have the oil filter in the oil pan. remove the drain plug and outr comes the filter. Been a while since I worked at Pontiac, 87, 88. Lots of replacing cam gears, no chains.
Anyone remember the recall 84C-15. In the fieros, leaking oil on the exhaust and poof.
Friend from Jeep has a complete built virgin Iron Duke Super Duty motor and parts too.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

It seems there were several types of Oldsmobile Quad 4 motors...

Read more here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Quad-4_engine

http://images.hemmings.com/wp-conten.../03/quad-4.jpg

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Does anyone here have a photo of the engine compartment of the Iron Duke motor in this Firebird.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/h...scan0001-2.jpg

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Well Ed, the sports cars of the time were tiny european open top cars with 4 wheel independant suspension and the focus was on handling. (triumph/mg's/porche/etc.
While the mustang did compete in some "sporty car" races it was a 2+2 car that handled well (for that time period) and the focus was more on fun and affordability. It was at home on a twisty track but was also home on a dragstrip and had optional v-8 engines strictly for straight line.
Sports cars on the other hand were solely twisty cars and didn't accellerate well enough to compete in drag racing. A 1500lb car with 75hp was great zipping through the S's and switchbacks but laughable on a straightaway or dragstrip.

Now people car them musclecars which isn't right either. Musclecars were cars designed to purely go in a straight line, all muscle. A bigblock chevelle or torino or various hemi's fit that bill.

Camaro's/cuda's&challenger were all pony cars because they were built to fit into the "new" class of vehicle that the mustang started. Mustang, being a horse the class was called "pony".

Semantic's for the most part but the mustang was not intended to be or ever was comparable to a MG or triumph. (the same as a camaro was never meant to be)

Of course this is just my opinion too, the same as me hating imports is my opinion. hehehe

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

So how could the Firebirds be called sports cars? The NHRA official was correct, GM's only sports car then was the Corvette.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

This info is not correct if my memory is any good......The first year Pontiac engines had both intake and exhaust manifolds on the same side of the engine.....drivers side.
The following year the new and improved cross flow head was on that engine. Thats how I recall it and I worked in a Pontiac dealer and worked on those cars regularly.
GM was producing some real junk and as a line mechanic I got to work on all sorts of engineering marvels......

This was the era of "corporate engines under the hood". Engines were calibrated so lean they could barely get out the driveway sometimes without bucking and missing......and my personal favorite....the odd fire Buick V6 3.8....shook so bad they had to add counterweights and soft engine and trans mounts.

I have some very funny stories from my days working on these cars and what we did to try and diagnose and fix some of these cars.

It was a Pontiac-Jeep-Subaru dealership and I worked on them all as an A Tech....

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Like Mark Yac said earlier, Pontiac was the NHRA sponsor at the time.
I went through the same crap with many other car models when NHRA will choose to give their own designation although the manufacturer had a different one.

One example is when NHRA designates a car model to a full body style when the car is a Medium size based on the OEM's designation. At the time, the Pontiac brochure had designated the Firebird as a Sports Car.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

Oldsmobile was the Offical Vehicle of NHRA from 1983 when Ford pulled back to the end of 1995 when Oldsmobile pulled out and GM gave it to Pontiac. Pontiac kept it till Obama Put Pontiac in the graveyard.

Re: Iron Dukes??
 

But, according to that list the Camaro/Firebird was available with that engine. I know I have had Gen 3 F body cars through my shop with 4 cyls. Been too long to remember which 4 cyl, but as best I can remember that was the only one GM had used in anything but sub-compacts at that time.