Dommination of FI cars.
 

With the ability of tuning FI cars to go as fast as you want with A key board. How much affect will this have on future car counts when traditional cars can not compete any more.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Very soon, I believe you will see another new rule that Fuel Injection is allowed on traditional cars that came with a carburetor.That will put that theory of yours to a rest.There is nothing STOCK about Super Stock or Stock anymore.I still think a Nitrous carbureted car can outrun a traditional fuel injected car though.


Just edited......

Upon reading the new 2008 rulebook,I'm not so sure that you have to run a carburetor in Super Stock.It looks like the CARBURETOR section is missing.Its still there for Stock,but it just might now be legal to run FUEL INJECTION instead of a carburetor.If its not legal now,I'm sure it will be soon.Even the Pro Stock section says CARBURETOR under the engine section,but not SUPER STOCK.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Stock rules take precedence over SS rules unless specified as an allowable difference.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Didn't some guy run a 400 block instead of a 440 and that was okay?

How about a 1968 Fuel Injected Pop-Up Piston 440 Dodge?
I bet that would be a killer combo!

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Gale, Can I pose a question to you? Help me understand how you achieve all of this extra horsepower from A key stroke. I've been working on that one for awhile and I just can't seem to grasp it?
If it was as simple as you say, don't you thinks that everyone who had an injected vehicle would be fast? It appears that from all of the qualifying sheets that I have seen that that isn't the case.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

I put together an LT-1 fuel injected Firebird and raced it for a little over a year. I built the engine myself with all very good parts. I never took the car or engine to a dyno session and tuned it myself on the racetrack learnig as I went along. I made some good runs but far from what the better cars can run. I ran a best of -.75 with the car 200lbs heavy for the class. Anyone who thinks a F.I. car is easy or will dominate is mistaken. Yes they are fast when they are working well but no faster or more consistant or predictable than some of the cars they will be lining up with in 2008. I sold my car in favor of something more "user friendly". Hopefully the new owner will do well with it and his first stop planned was a chassis dyno session with friends who are much more savy than me on the tuning of one of these cars.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

I would rather race than argue about what will be on this matter, but Bruce I think Gale Forse is the only "key Stroke" on this thread.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Gale and Jim,

You are both right and FI will domminate as they want, until NHRA properly factors those motors..I think by mid-year racers will see just how much faster they really are over carbs...
Bruce, you are right they are not easy..But do have a big advantage over carbs... Anyway, time will tell and its not just the Chevies,but the 302 ci fords are a Hot little piece..... The bottom line is they will Domminate as they please, all the class they are in........2008 will be a very interesting year.. I think it won't be long before its sticks/auto's together, we will see in 2009..
I do think it will make for some good heads-up and class racing for a little while...
" Happy Holidays" Dave...1033/stock

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

The last I checked, keystrokes replaced jetting, powervavles, squirters, diaphrams, and other legal carburetor changes in FI. You can dump as little or as much fuel into a 55mm hole, just as long as the hole isn't smaller or bigger than 55mm (or whatever came on the engine). If I recall, I thought carb cars can use an O2 sensor system which pretty much makes the tuning game even. But if there's a "keystroke combo" that increases horsepower, please pass it on!!!

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Come to think of it,I sure have seen a lot of carburetors for sale lately.Some might want to consider a three speed powerglide trans.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

If you look at races, the FI cars can run more mph and lower et at will by dialing this into there computer. Some FI cars are running 300 to 400 pounds of extra weight to slow their cars down.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Can ya help me find one of those computers? Mine must be broken.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Bruce--If they send you an extra one of " those" computers please pass it along to me as I see 2008 as a tough season for my C/SA Firebird . Here in D1 there are a boatload of big block 69 Camaros just waiting for a shot at us . As for FI cars running 300-400 lbs heavy that might work when there is only one car in the class but that won't be the case in 2008 as they will all be very populated making for some very good racing.

Dave--I really don't see the domination that you do--maybe its time that you spend a little money or even better try keeping your foot down for all of the 1320 feet. Happy Holidays my friend !!!!!!!!

PS--An even better move would be to ask your son Dean for a ride in that new Firebird that he just bought .

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Ed-You're right -over the years I've had many carb cars and really liked several.Here's the problem--I still have several 69 Camaros in my garage and enjoy them a bunch--but I can't bring myself to cut up 40 year old iron--maybe I'm just too much of a purist .

Dave--You're all wet buddy--there is no domination in the stock ranks--as you know there are plenty of big block 69 Camaros in D1 that are just chomping at the bit waiting to have a crack at me in 2008 in my C/SA Firebird . As for you--well you need to spend some money over the Winter my friend, as Stock is getting to be the new wallet class .Happy Holidays.........

PS--Better yet maybe you can get a ride in your son Deans new Firebird stocker...........

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Jack,

Ed, has a very good point but you already knew that .....It will be interesting to see how many FI don't attend National events, now that all the runs will count... Jack, you also won't be able to run 2-300 lbs heavy any more...Jack, you must be into the meds early, if you don't think the FI cars can't out ET + MPH the carbed cars... But you already know that !!! You will have to be a real good boy and not go to fast, or you we be thrown out of the 1000' club... Also you will get those late nite phone calls from the " FI police " you know who I mean !!!!
You also know with more FI cars its going to be hard to slow them down that much........

" Happy Holidays " Dave...1033/stock

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

On just about all accounts EFI is, and should be, better than carburetion. Factory EFI offers better cold-start, better driveability, far better fuel control for emissions and better fuel economy. Does it offer better power, we don't know because the factory doesn't do back-to-back testing of EFI vs.carburetion. In testing I have done personally, I've seen little difference in peak power production if you have the right carb and manifold. In many cases the carb out-performs EFI. The problem with a Stocker is that you don't have an optimized induction, however, most factory EFI inductions (throttle body and intake) aren't designed for max power either. If any of you carb guys think that we can do magic and turn up the power "with a key stroke" you are completely ignorant and/or grossly misinformed. I recommend you do some serious reading, spend time dynoing these engines or better yet, build a EFI racecar yourself. The great power from modern EFI engines comes from the overall design which offers reduced internal friction, better head design, roller cams and rockers and better materials. It's not just a matter of having fuel injection.

The fact is, who cares what's on top of the engine because we run off HP-to-weight factors, so it's the HP factor that really matters. Like someone stated in an earlier post, anyone can have a tunable MSD with O2 capabilities and fine-tune their carbureted engine. How many of you EFI complainers have this, or data-logging, so you can take advantage of legal technology to build max power? How many have been to a chassis dyno? Very few I bet, because it's easier to complain rather than to work hard.

Here is another reality: Most of our engines only operate in a small rpm window as the car goes down track. So we're only tuning for maximum power in a very short rpm (say 2,500 rpm) window and therefore it comes down to the design of the engine and the tuning ability of the individual to extract maximum power. It doesn't matter if you have a carb or EFI, because the smart builder/tuners will always have the faster cars. This is because they understand air/fuel ratios and how to tune them properly. I spoke with Barry Grant last week at PRI (who by the way, doesn't sell EFI), and he stated that the ONLY way to tune properly (any engine) is by knowing the air/fuel ratio, period. With EFI there is no control of the air entering the engine, just like a carb, what EFI offers is more precise control of fueling--if you know what you are doing. On some EFI engines the intake is plastic and will resist heat soak better than cast iron or aluminum, but this is little consequence for the short duration of a drag race.

Lastly, any of you can sell your old car build a car with the current technology. Segregating cars is not the answer because we will just end up with a class for everyone who shows up at the track. It will be like 5-year old Tee-Ball where there are no winners or losers and everyone gets a trophy. This is racing. It isn't easy (nor should it be) and technology will always advance. With that, there are plenty of EFI cars that can be built on a budget. Just look at Lee Valentine, who built a 5.0 Mustang and ran a second under or more for less than $7,000.

Evan

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

From reading the rulebook,I have another question.In the STOCK section,under carburetor,it says that replacement carburetors are permitted provided they are the same model,type,throttle bore,and venturi size.
In the fuel injection wording,it says larger fuel injectors permitted,provided no modifications or redrilling of manifolds is performed.My question is this:Why are larger fuel injectors permitted?
I'm sure there is absolutely no performance gain with a larger fuel injector,so why are they permitted?
Its not the same logic as changing to a larger jet in the carburetor,right?

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

actualy it is the same as changing the internal metering in a carb, although EFI can "back up" from the max flow rate, where a jet or oriface cannot.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

As power/performance increases, the "pulse width" (the amount of time the injector is injecting fuel) needs to be made larger. The options, then, are "small" injector with a "large" pulse width; or a "large" injector with a "small" pulse width. It relates to the efficiency of the injector, which as I understand it drops off as you continue to increase pulse width. The use of larger injectors allows the user to keep the injectors in their "sweet spot".

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

I'm not going to get into ANY kind of arguments with anybody,but telling a Stock racer (that reads the rulebook) that he needs to use the correct venturi size on his carburetor is not really fair when the car in the other lane has fuel injection.Thats all I'm going to say.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

A carb meters air & fuel and so does an FI system. I've been able to alter A/F ratio's on a carb (on an engine dyno) along with BSFC numbers to my satisfaction in both Stock and Superstock. And that's using a 4300 Autolite; a carb with no secondary jetting or metering rods. And I would be willing to bet most small block cars (as I believe all the FI cars in S/SS are running a small block) cars have more carb than they need (i.e., T-Quad & Q-Jet). So I could care less about injector sizing or even spray pattern. I would think the tip-in of an automatic transmission FI car would be easier to manage as your not dealing with pump shot and secondary air-valve opening rates. But all those "problems" have been solved bythe sharp tuners.
The bottom line is (like Evan Smith said), they all perform the same functions just in different ways. Some can't even figure how to tune a carb so don't knock a system such as FI when you would be even more lost! I predict there will be more heads up runs in '08 and I agree whole-heartedly this is the best way to go along with counting more runs. The fast cars will be forced to show their hands and the HP factors will adjust accordingly. I would love to see a maximum weight overage also; either 100#'s or must race at next higher class; no 300# overweight cars.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

The booster venturi is NOT the same as an injector. Nor is the venturi itself. Changing a fuel injector is the same as changing a jet. A fuel injector DOES NOT change airflow (not by itself, unless it protrudes into the air stream, and most do not). Changing a booster venturi will change AIR FLOW, as well as changing HOW fuel flows. The reason you are not allowed to change the booster venturi is because in many cases you can change to a booster venturi that will allow you to flow more air. The amount of misinformation and disinformation disseminated by people who have no idea what they're talking about is amazing.

Fuel injected cars (SOME of them anyway) will have an advantage, at least to begin with. The way to fix that would be to force them to trigger a review with the AHFS. If you take your carbureted car and go home and whimper, it'll never change. If you go race them and make them show their hand, it might just change.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Hows about this one Boys and Girls. Everyone with a small block gets a 750 Holley and everyone with a big block gets a 850 Holley and everyone gets an aftermarket intake. As someone who is working with a fuel injection combo I'd like to not have to do all this programming stuff forget the $500 tuner or the $1200 aftermarket computer system, leave the $1500 laptop at home too. BY THE WAY LET EVERYONE HAVE A 350 SMALL BLOCK AND JUST CALL IT CRATEMOTOR. The guy with the 2 second tune-up should be easy to find in the pits too, he's towing his stocker with the Brinks Truck.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Although not very detailed, there is a really good EFI article in the current Car Craft rag (Feb 2008 issue) on page 50. In reality, if you can wire a car, you can set up an EFI system. To support what Evan Smith pointed out earlier, there are advantages AND drawbacks to EFI systems. Same goes for carb engines. The trick, no matter what you run, is knowing how much fuel to apply based on what the engine is doing. THE ONLY ADVANTAGE OF AN EFI SYSTEM is it's ability to add or take away fuel throughout the RPM/power range based on engine load and oxygen readings. I run a simple speed density system without an O2 sensor (runs in open loop). The "tuneup" is just like selecting proper jetting and power valve choice on a Holley style carb. Matter of fact there are carbureted cars out there using sophisicated wide band O2 sensors that are tuned better than many EFI cars. Then there are those EFI cars that run better than many carb cars out there due to the amount of time and "homework" the driver/builder/tuner has put into the setup. So in the end, it's still all about rated horsepower. Induction properties will always be proportional to the limitations of the intake system, whether carbureted or EFI. Simply put, it all comes down to combination choice.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

the LT1s just got hit with 5 HP (336 to 341) and we were at 325 when we were kicked out of the traditional stocker classes and given our own classes because of the bitches. So dont say "the AHFS needs to do it's job", i think it's working out just fine. And DONT tell me the 396's havn't made any more HP than they did when we were given our own FI classes. Since Top Stock became popular in D1, i've seen some really fast runs out of carburated cars, including mopars and fords.. not just 396's. Do any of you monkey's even race against LT1's or LS1's, or even the older TPI cars? Propbably not, especially that dope, GALE FORCE. haha nice bogus name you homo. The best part about this thread is the title, "domination of FI cars" when we havn't even raced together again in the traditional classes yet. Perhaps Gale Force is the second coming of Nostradomus?

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Billy you forgot to mention that genius Speedracer.......he loves to make little comments that insinuate this or that and probably races a Matchbox car........but it don't even run the index.:rolleyes:

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

I race a SUPERCHARGED MACH 5 that is not in the classification sheets at this time,but I am working on getting a letter that will allow me to race it in A/SA through P/SA depending on how I want.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Call Carrol Shelby and he should be able to set you up with the right paperwork. P/SA might be a little heavy at 6000lbs though........

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

This Shelby bashing has to stop, I have heard stories about certan guys that knew people in GM that got all sorts of changes to cars that they were racing, PAPER UPDATES. IF YOU GUYS ARE SMART ENOUGH TO BUILD AN FE FORD, GO build one. How long is this crying going to go on for, and by some people WHO DON'T EVEN RACE STOCK. Enough is enough.



I don't race an FI car, but this is how I see it. The AFHS have been adjusting Combo's for a couple of years now. I remember in the 90's when the FI cars were real fast. I remember a Buick GN that ran H/SA and he used to run in the 10.80's BACK THEN. But today I don't see FI cars running away like that anymore, I think things have adjusted alot closer since that time. I don't know about SS but When a Tuneport 305 has as much power on it as a 283 with a 4GC thats kinda stupid and maybe the new AFHS will help balance that. Back to stock. Lets see what happens. In our sport not everybody is going to be happy, but they aren't supposed to be. I like the Idea that at Indy there might be 20+ cars in A B and C. More heads ups, more performance based racing. Thats a good thing. and if those cars runaway in the begining, in time they will be brought back in. The last thing, Racing an FI car has to be hard. The electronics are very complex ( I know because I'm an auto mechanic ) You have to be computer savy to tune and diag problems, when problems arrive you better be smart enough to fix em, and finally the cost is much higher to build ,race, and maintain them. I feel we need to let this play out and not jump to conclusions. IF THIS IS A GREAT CAN'T MISS THING, GO AND BUILD ONE.
Just my 2 cents

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean that someone else cant...

And if you like to crunch numbers....take a look at these..

67 shelby 428 automatic rated at 367 .85hp per cubic inch
67 shelby 428 manual rated at 358 .83hp per cubic inch

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Todd, it was meant as joke reply to a joke post. I know very little about the Ford combinations that appear to be a good bit faster than just about any other car at that weight break. Since I raced Stock in the era when those cars were new I can tell you I never saw one racing back then that I can recall.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Well, if you can have a different venturi size then I want a bigger throttle body.

What a lot of people dont understand is that EFI is basically a carb that you tune with a laptop. If you tune without an air/fuel ratio meter(as i have for the past two years) then you are in the same ballpark as most carb guys. If you use an air/fuel ratio meter then you can tune it in very nicely. But this meter also works all the same with a carb.

If you arent using one, you are just tuning by the seat of your pants.

Also, I would never set the tune up in the computer to pick up ET at a race. Most racers are doing this with shift points, and timing. I can easily drop a few degrees of timing in the laptop, and you carb guys just have to take a few min to turn the distributor.

Give EFI a try once... it is a pain in the *** most of the time. Only 10% of the time do I really have a clue what I am doing.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

The Advantage of the FI cars is not limited to the fuel system. The bigger deal is all the modern efficent parts in the engine. The parts in a LT1 and LS1 are so much better than the agricultural old junk in most ( not all) carb. vehicles. No matter how much you work on it you still have antique cast iron stuff.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

I have bitched about fast cars having advantage over slower cars because of redlight advantage.
All I ever heard was build a fast car if you dont like it.
Ok if you think FI has advantage build one you complaining bastards or even up the playing field for slower cars.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

FIRST OR WORST is only right on a redlight,the slower car shouldn't automatically be the loser !!!

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Last time I checked the class is called Stock Eliminator, not Nostaliga Stock. The factories haven't made a car or truck with a carb since the '80s.

This is a stupid debate. Based on the comments made by those who are bitching, it has become clear that they do not understand the basics of internal combuation and/or electronic fuel injection. Furthermore, they are terrified of technology, some of which they probably use every day.

The friggin injectors simply flow fuel and are no different than a jet in a carb. It is but one way the EFI system meters fuel. You can over fuel or under fuel with either EFI or carburetion. An injector is simply a solenoid controlled by the computer, which is tuned by an individual. The idea, just like with a carb, is to find the optimal air/fuel ratio for the engine under WOT. How does one know what the proper a/f ratio is? Easy, you use current technology with an O2 sensor and either track or dyno testing to tune your engine. You can do this with a carbureted setup or with EFI. Once you've achieved max power using this tuning method, there is not much more anyone can do to make more power by simply stroking keys or by other measures. If you do not know how somthing works I recommend you educate yourself before making silly comments in an open forum.

The intake and throttle body is what controls (and limits) airflow, the injectors have nothing to do with airflow. Injectors are flow rated at a given psi and raising or lowering the pressure can increase or decrease fuel flow. One can also alter the "pulse width," which is the amount of time the injector stays open once it is commandeed to do so. In most cases, the TB and intake is sized much smaller than a comparable carb/intake setup for any given displacement engine.

Evan

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Ed,

There is no questioning that the GM LS engine is superior to other small-blocks. But this doesn't speak for all EFI cars. The LS1 started around 325 HP and is now over 370 in some cases. Over time I'm sure it will continute to get factored, so what's the big deal.

It is most certainly is possible to control cylinder-to-cylinder fueling with some EFI systems, but not with others. Getting this right would take eight wide-band a/f sensors in each header pipe, the data-logging to receive the data and quite a bit of time and money spent on testing. This is more than most Stock racers will go through to find what would likely be only a 5-10 hp at most. You could do similar tuning with MSD's adjustable ignition box (on virtually any engine) using adjustable timing to alter the a/f mix.

While I am not a carb expert (or an expert on anything for that matter), I would imagine you could stagger jetting (on some cabs) to affect the a/f ratio using same a/f sensor technique as noted above with simlar expense. Technology will always move forward, that is a fact in any part of life. There are plenty of racers going 1.20, 1.30 or even 1.40-or-further under with carburetors. If EFI is that much better then racers wishing to use such technology can go get at car or truck with EFI. NHRA doesn't require that you or anyone run any particular combination. This is competitive racing with thousands of combinations that NHRA has to try and keep on a level playing field. This, as anyone knows, is virtually impossible. Someone will always be fast, others will be slow.

I think guys with carbs have an advantage because the cars are easier to work on and simpler to operate. Plus, carb racers have had the advantage of far more R&D time since many have been running these cars since the '60s. So maybe we should ban carburetors and only allow 1988 or newer cars in Stock. Of course I'm kidding, but you see my point. Why sit here and complain about everything? I guarantee that over the broad spectrum of classes the majority of cars will be rather equal in performance. There will always be on fast EFI car or combo that eveyone points out, there will be many more with carburetors that fly.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that carbs are not as efficient as EFI. But the real issue that everyone is crying about is weak factors on EFI cars. Namely the LS engines. Many of the fast cars have been hit hard. There have been 9.80 passes in my division by two or three cars. All big-blocks, which is what the LS cars run against. Now that the classes are combined, there will be more heads-up runs and more action from the AHFS. If a racer's goal is to go far under the index, well find a combination that is soft.

Evan

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Ed,

Another note: From the testing I've done, I can tell you there is very little difference in hp once the a/f ratio is in the "zone." Say your target is 13.0:1, well, running at 12.8-13.2 will give you virtually the same HP. As long as most engines stay in this window, power will vary very little. The trick is knowing cylinder-to-cylinder a/f during the run, which, while some may have, is not someting I've not seen on any Stocker.

Evan

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Ed, there is more than adjusting each injector for each cylinder, and no, it is not an advantage since the mixture is affected by a lot of other variables such as airflow and reversion during the RPM transition. The A/F does not stay the same throughout the RPM band. There is more than F.I. that is helping the new cars go fast. Let's take a look at the following:

1. Better optimized cylinder heads and intakes.
2. Changed firing orders.
3. Lighter crankshafts, rods and pistons.
4. Thinner ring packages.
5. Hydraulic roller lifters.
6. Better oiling systems.
7. Better ignition systems.

I have seen articles in which they have removed the F.I. on LS1 engines, intall an Edelbrock intake and carb with the engine still making lots of power and torque. Many of the crate GM engines are just an LT1 engine with a carb.

Re: Dommination of FI cars.
 

Since I purchased a work in progress FI car last year, I hope the thread starter is correct and maybe I can win a race.......but I'll have to say playing with it last year I was really considering a carb.

tim