Factory experimental

[art leong]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Evan Smith wrote, in regard to the cars in question: "They are built on a special Ford assembly line in a Roush building,"

This is spin #3,428....

Are they, in fact, Fords? Apparently not... in a previous post you have said, "Ford and Roush are not tied at the hips at all when it comes to drag racing. Roush is listed as the MANUFACTURER of Roush Mustangs, not Ford." and, " When you purchase one of these cars, you get a Roush Mustang."

So, which is it; a Ford Mustang, or a Roush Mustang??? I guess, given what you are contending, it's a ROUSH. It can't be both....

Having said that, what significance exists then, to "They are built on a special Ford assembly line in a Roush building..."

So, we have a 2010 "ROUSH" coming down a "Ford" assembly line, with Roush building a car that is NOT a "FORD."
RE: "Roush is listed as the manufacturer of its Roush Mustangs, not Ford..."

Can you see why this sounds like spin city???

IE: How can it be a "FORD" assembly line" Ford has nothing to do with it, at this point. It's a Roush assembly line; not a Ford... building a car that is a 2010 ROUSH.

That makes it an "aftermarket" car, to me... not that that matters. Nobody cares what I think, nor should they; I'm just trying to sort this out so that it makes some kind of sense. A blown, "Stocker" with 4 valves per cylinder is unprecedented and deserves close scrutiny, regardless of WHO builds it. None of the other cars that were built "off-site," like the Thunderbolts and '68 Hemi Mopar A-bodies were ~ever~ in Stock Eliminator. That's what I mean by "un-precedented." Can you think of any such car, Evan? Not the cross-ram AMC Super Stock AMX's. NHRA wouldn't even let the '63 Tempests with the 421 powertrains into Super Stock, much less Stock... nor, the '63 Z-11 Chevys, at the time. Made 'em both run A/FX...

Besides, I wasn't really trying to prove ~anything~ about the new Cobra Jets; I'm more curious about the '63 Z-11 cars as to why this 2010 car makes it into Stock Eliminator and the 46 year-old Chevy doesn't. Guess that's not your department though; just thought I'd raise the question. Forgive the digressions of an old man...

Try to spell my name right; I'm not dead yet... (gettin' closer, evey day...) LOL!

Bill DEDMAN

Bill Bill Bill. You need to do more fact checking and a little less pounding on the keys. After all the rants about the "turbo dodges" I thought you would have known that the 1986 "Shelby" GLHS is in the stock car classification guide.
Chrylser sent these plain Omni's to Caroll Shelby's plant. Shelby installed the turbos, intercoolers, radiators, interiors, Etc.The cars were numbered cars and most of them were titled as "Shelby's not Dodges.
I'm sure there are other cases similar to this. I'm not an expert. And I'm no longer in stock eliminator.
If these cars go out and fly. Maybe nhra will hit them with a 9% horsepower increase (Art Leong AHFS rule) at one time like they did to me.
Let the cars run then lets see what happens

[ss3845]

I think what Evan was stating is they are different cars. There is a Roush Mustang and a Ford Cobra Jet. Different cars, different manufacturers. Roush is a manufacturer just like Shelby was/is.

Take a minute and read the press release on NHRA.com. You won't see the name Roush anywhere.

[Tim Kish]

Let's do some math if numbers help people understand.

Let's start with the current class record for AA/S - 9.71 held by a 68 Camaro (396 factored at 400Hp). Using a simple (by no means perfrect) Hp/ET calculator from the internet at the class minimum weight for the Camaro of 3170lb for AA/S this car must produce 669Hp to produce a 9.71 ET. That is a power to weight ratio of 0.211 HP/LB

Applying it to the Cobra Jet at an NHRA Factor of 425Hp the Cobra Jet must weigh a minimum of 3357lbs for AA/S. If intention is to be equivalent to current competition, assume that same power to weight ratio at the Camaro and the Cobra Jet must produce 708Hp to produce that same 9.71

Now it doesn't look like these cars are that soft and given some of the points Evan pointed out that make this chassis less than ideal for a stocker these cars will be at the top end of the class but won't have any significant advantage.

Problem I see is the short sighted vision of people that fail to remember that the HP numbers in NHRA's system aren't real HP if they were a AA/S Camaro should only be able to run an 11.52 @ 117 mph.

Also Eaton Supercharged powertrains have been in the NHRA classification guide since 1992 but not too many people have chosen the Pontiac Bonneville SSEI as their race car of choice!!!

[Dave Ficacci]

Originally Posted by Tim Kish

Let's do some math if numbers help people understand.

Let's start with the current class record for AA/S - 9.71 held by a 68 Camaro (396 factored at 400Hp). Using a simple (by no means perfrect) Hp/ET calculator from the internet at the class minimum weight for the Camaro of 3170lb for AA/S this car must produce 669Hp to produce a 9.71 ET. That is a power to weight ratio of 0.211 HP/LB

If my father made 669 hp, he would be going 9.20s

[bill dedman]

Art said, "Bill Bill Bill. You need to do more fact checking and a little less pounding on the keys. After all the rants about the "turbo dodges" .... etc., etc,. etc..."


And, I replied, "Art, Art, Art... (I'm not half-blind anymore, after my recent cataract surgery, so I now recognize my name when I see it, even if I only see it ONCE... lol!) I don't know what you're getting at. I was never advocating that these new Mustangs NOT be included in the Classification Guide, regardless of whether they were FORD Mustangs, or Roush Mustangs. My contention was that if they ~are~ ROUSH Mustangs, they are, as Bruce contends, "aftermarket" cars, and not "Stock Eliminator" material, regardless of the deal that was worked out for the Shelby-constructed turbo Chargers. It says in the rulebook that on a deal like that, "acceptance will NOT imply precedent." (the capitalization is mine.) I would think that they more appropriately belong in Super Stock with the Thunderbolts, etc., since those cars, along with the S/S Hemi 'Cudas and Darts were built "offsite," too., and were not OEM assembly-line cars"


Art also said, "Chrylser sent these plain Omni's to Caroll Shelby's plant. Shelby installed the turbos, intercoolers, radiators, interiors, Etc.The cars were numbered cars and most of them were titled as "Shelby's not Dodges. I'm sure there are other cases similar to this. I'm not an expert. And I'm no longer in stock eliminator.
If these cars go out and fly. Maybe nhra will hit them with a 9% horsepower increase (Art Leong AHFS rule) at one time like they did to me.
Let the cars run then lets see what happens."

And, I replied, "Well, I'm sorry you got hit with such so much horsepower, and all at once; 9% is a whale of an increase!!! I can't see NHRA doing that to these cars, though.... too much in the way of "politics" involved.
The only problem I have with this whole deal is this: ~IF~ NHRA de-factors that 700hp car to a figure that will allow it into Stock Eliminator (at 700hp it would have to weigh 5,250 pounds.... not gonna happen for several reasons), I think its performance capability would render everyone else in that class a moot point. De-factoring of engines works to a degree, with over-stated outputs (like with pre-72 cars that were rated with an SAE number for GROSS HP), but that is not the case, here. I'd bet that this is a bonafide 700HP mill, or Ford/Roush wouldn't have clamed the number. It would be of NO benefit to them, to over-state the output. As such, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what NHRA tries to do with the car. You know that there are guys out there (and, some on this board, and, you're probably one of them) that can, and will, add another 150HP to that 700 number, if the time comes, and they have the opportunity."

Then, I added... "One thing is certain; no amount of ~my~ input is going to make NHRA do ANYTHING they don't want to do... I might as well be talking to a wall. But discussion boards serve a purpose in allowing idiots like myself to rant about whatever, and sometimes good ideas come of it.... sometimes."

And, finally, I continued, "Thanks for listening, Art, and good luck with your Super Stocker; it looks awesome! I love innovative cars. My own "race car" (daily driver, with ~some~ bracket activity) is a Vortech-inspired 360 Magnum-powered '72 Valiant 4-door sedan. Is that weird enough for you? LOL! People think it's an old taxi... one guy said, "Hey, that's a Joe Friday car!"

Bill

[Bruce Noland]

That's a nice piece that John Jodauga wrote about the new Mustang. He mentioned a couple other cars that Ford debuted at the Winternationals; one in Super Stock and the second in A/FX.

[Tim Kish]

Originally Posted by Dave Ficacci

If my father made 669 hp, he would be going 9.20s

Like I said the calculator was crude (from TCI website). My point was the car MUST produce well over the 400HP that it is rated so if this Cobra Jet motor is capable of 700HP the NHRA factor to be comparable to the existing class would not be based on that actual measured HP value.

[Bruce Noland]

Tim,
The 425 Horsepower rating for the new Mustang is supposedly a best guess figure because they don't have any history on this car's performance. The 400 rating on the 396 is based on 40 years of evaluations. The 720+ Horsepower figure was given to me at SEMA. The most potent Stockers on the track make 80 to 100 horsepower less than the new Mustangs. nhra and Ford should have put these cars in Factory Experimental or a class like AAA, if they were at all interested in fairly classifing these cars. It may take them awhile to get these cars settled down; but they will. Indy should be the proof in the pudding.

[goinbroke2]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

Geez...I hope when you prepare your taxes your not as easy with the zero's!
Here's the real deal:

Wolfe said, "There are a number of reasons why this is significant. Ford has not been involved in Sportsman racing for quite a few years, but now we're going to be paying $1,000 in contingency earnings for anyone who wins an NHRA national event title in a Sportsman category, from Comp through Super Street. The new Cobra Jet is hopefully just the beginning of other similar projects to come in the future. We hope to offer a 2010 MY Cobra Jet, and details about that car should be available either late in the spring or the early summer."

..........ahhhh....THAT'S why they audit me every year.........Thanks Jeff! LOL!

Point was though, $1,000! Compare that to the standard $100 to win and $50 RU.


(can't help but think after seeing all these pages that if it didn't have the dreaded blue oval, the responses would of been different)

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

Tim,
The 425 Horsepower rating for the new Mustang is supposedly a best guess figure because they don't have any history on this car's performance. The 400 rating on the 396 is based on 40 years of evaluations. The 720+ Horsepower figure was given to me at SEMA. The most potent Stockers on the track make 80 to 100 horsepower less than the new Mustangs. nhra and Ford should have put these cars in Factory Experimental or a class like AAA, if they were at all interested in fairly classifing these cars. It may take them awhile to get these cars settled down; but they will. Indy should be the proof in the pudding.

Bruce;
I didn't know NHRA had F/X and AAA/S classes.LOL