Stick vs. Auto index

[Scott Loge]

Are you guys for real?!?! Go by the NHRA records and not take into account where or what the air was? Factored track or non-factored track?!?! These are all factors for all cars. Stick, auto do not matter it is a choice. When i raced I ran G/Sa at Pomona and went 11:19 in F/Sa. Pomona is a good track with great air in the winter. I go to Boise and add 60 pounds to run G/Sa still 40 heavy and run within .oo1 of G/record at 10.99. My car was manhandled in class several times by several cars. These are facts with run slips to prove. !!!!

Get off the box and leave the class alone!!!

[SS Engine Guy]

Originally Posted by SS Engine Guy

Enough with the "rule change of the week". If you want to combine them then let the stick have the magnetic release and the auto the full lock up converter. And let both SPEND MORE MONEY.

I am sorry for using "combine them" in my post. Please disregard the previous post and insert in place of combine: ( achieve a level playing field by changing indexes). I shouldn't have even posted anything to begin with since this dosen't affect/effect me at all. In my error, I think that I was thinking that some were suggesting that the indexes between sticks and autos should be the same. Sorry for my confusion.

[SS Engine Guy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

Since SS Engine Guy brought up money, tell us how much money Youngblood would have to spend to find the extra 40 HP needed to obtain that #1 qualifying position?

Gee I have no idea of how much money someone would have to spend in order to pick up 40 hp. in order to qualify the same in that senario. I guess it depends on how scienced out the car is and how long it has been thrashed. Somewhere between $40.00 and $40,000 in the engine compartment I'm guessing. Chassis would be a little higher. Might be something as simple as the brakes dragging.

[Jeff Lee]

OK, so throw the record runs out with the trash. But I really don't know how to compare performance with any substance. Be that as it may, it all boils down to not seeing one argument made that can support there being any difference in the comparative indexes; other than there are those wanting to protect their advantages. I'm not suggesting an advantage for one group over the other, and am not suggesting a rule change. Just simply suggesting equality.

[Mike Dahl]

We race based on elapsed times and the current records do not show an advantage to the stick cars. In fact, most Super Stock records favor the automatic.

As I see it, the largest advantage the automatic has is the ability to buy or build a proven combination that has been tested and enhanced by many, many more racers and engine builders. When you run a stick, you are almost alone on the island with regards to camshaft, clutch, and tire choices; and yes it's all different.

In short, more advances will be realized with a larger group testing and enhancing a combination. I hope there is no debate with this statement.

To be fair, maybe the stick could run faster than their automatic counterparts. Maybe not. We just need a larger test group to prove it. Until then, let's even them up and see where we are.

A final note... Sometimes an implied consensus is interpreted on these forums based on the volume of posts that support one side of a discussion or another. I would hope that the imbalance of stick vs. auto racers is taken into account.

Mike

[james schaechter]

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

Gary, Joe,

I would like to voice an opinion from the other side of the fence: Over the last few years automatics have really benefited from the advent of the ProTrans (or similar), Radial tires (which don't work on a stick) and improved converter technology. This has amounted to gains in the neighborhood of .2-.3 tenths for the average racer, yet there has been no such advance in technology for stick racers. Clutches are better than they used to be, but not to the tune of .2 tenths.

I can't speak for Top Stock, but in Jr. Stock, Bruce, Ficacci Jr., Henry, Lowell and I all run close. Ficacci gets about a 100-lb. break with the stick (over his old combo) because the combo is factored softer than with the auto. Not a stick deal, more a factor deal. It's also hard to compare an entire class based on a handful of cars. Steve Ficacci Sr. has all but owned Top Stock, but his driving is amazing, as is the performance of his car.

There is no way that stick cars are .10-.20 quicker than their automatic counterparts on average, as the indexes would suggest. Of course this could be argued all day and night, but the numbers don't lie.

Evan

Evan, you know I am a stick guy, but holy crap! Does that mean you would go 1.60 under with an automatic in your car? All you Ford dudes ought to start building one....

[Chuck Beach]

Sorry Jeff, I thought the whole discussion was stick index vs. auto. Seems to me that Evan has a very good combination and I doubt if any automatics can run with him ... great job Evan ...

Sat, 4 Oct 2008, 11:08 AM

Stock Eliminator Qualifying, Final Order

ATCO, N.J. - Final order after 3 rounds of qualifying in Stock Eliminator at the NHRA Lucas Oil Drag Racing Series, Northeast Division, LODRS 1-7 presented by PC Richard & Son, GMC and Pontiac:

Psn--Num--Class-Driver, Home Town, Machine-----------------ET---Index---(+/-)

1 1798 H/S Evan Smith, Linden NJ, '93 Cobra 10.903 12.30 -1.397
2 1021 J/SA Gene Monahan, Brockton MA, '90 Formula 11.377 12.75 -1.373
3 1904 BF/S Dennis Chapman, Toms River NJ, '88 Shadow 13.605 14.95 -1.345
4 1137 I/SA Cecil Frazier, Canton MA, '91 Camaro 11.265 12.60 -1.335
5 1002 B/SA Jeffrey Bardekoff, Commack NY, '64 Fury 10.238 11.55 -1.312
6 1773 F/SA Dustan Lowell, Kensington NH, '72 Duster 10.842 12.15 -1.308
7 1534 G/SA Henry Kunz, Farmingdale NY, '69 Nova 10.999 12.30 -1.301
8 1614 B/SA Barry Parker, Southwick MA, '69 Camaro 10.256 11.55 -1.294
9 1239 H/SA Don Quinn, Howell NJ, '78 Nova 11.157 12.45 -1.293
10 198 J/SA Steve Szupka, Willow Grove PA, '85 Camaro 11.461 12.75 -1.289
11 1634 Q/SA Briane Philbrick, Vineland ON, '76 Monza 12.822 14.10 -1.278
12 1134 I/SA Tom Kreeber, Rensselaer NY, '67 Barracuda 11.327 12.60 -1.273
13 1568 K/SA Leo Niedermeier Jr, Monroe CT, '74 Camaro 11.689 12.95 -1.261
14 1109 G/SA John Gray, Hudson MA, '72 Nova 11.044 12.30 -1.256
15 1152 B/S Ed Bednaz, Terryville CT, '69 Nova 10.245 11.50 -1.255
16 1547 E/SA Jack Matyas, Bethlehem PA, '04 GTO 10.748 12.00 -1.252
17 1013 A/SA David Ficacci, E. Hanover NJ, '69 Camaro 10.048 11.30 -1.252
18 1570 B/SA Frank Bialas, Linden NJ, '70 GTX 10.310 11.55 -1.240
19 1499 B/SA Jim Boudreau, Tewksbury MA, '69 Camaro 10.311 11.55 -1.239
20 1150 H/SA Russell Linke, Old Bridge NJ, '85 Camaro 11.214 12.45 -1.236
21 1788 H/SA Bruce Noland, Leesburg VA, '73 Camaro 11.216 12.45 -1.234

[Superfan1]

Originally Posted by Jared Jordan

The quickest SS/AM car in the country (Scott Gove) runs a stick.

A good comparison is the SS/AH cars of the Westcotts. At a recent test session Jr. went 8.50 @ 155 with the auto and Sr. went 8.51 @ 158 with the stick. Same track, same day, same air. I know that the 4-speed is 40 lbs lighter but it also doesn't use the radial.

Scott Gove is the quickest SS/AM on the planet, but Paul Ricci is the record holder at 8.19@164.55 with an automatic. He set it at the D-1 race at Atco this past weekend. Scott Gove has the potential to be the second SSer to run in the 7s but he was at Atco and didn't set the record. I don't know if he had problems but he didn't get the record. If he is at the Dutch Classic and the air is good; watch out!
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

[Superfan1]

Originally Posted by Jared Jordan

The quickest SS/AM car in the country (Scott Gove) runs a stick.

A good comparison is the SS/AH cars of the Westcotts. At a recent test session Jr. went 8.50 @ 155 with the auto and Sr. went 8.51 @ 158 with the stick. Same track, same day, same air. I know that the 4-speed is 40 lbs lighter but it also doesn't use the radial.

Interesting comparison; for the last 2 years the Westcotts have been trying to get Sr's stick car to 60' and 330' as well as Jr's automatic. It has always been obvious that Sr's car ran great mph, but Jr's car ran quicker ET. Now Jr's car is up for sale. and he is building a stick car. It took 2 years to get the stick car to ET well enough to convince the Westcotts to build a second stick car. I would think that this supports the premise that, with all other things being equal, the automatic is quicker and the stick is faster.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

[bsa633]

Originally Posted by Superfan1

Scott Gove is the quickest SS/AM on the planet, but Paul Ricci is the record holder at 8.19@164.55 with an automatic. He set it at the D-1 race at Atco this past weekend. Scott Gove has the potential to be the second SSer to run in the 7s but he was at Atco and didn't set the record. I don't know if he had problems but he didn't get the record. If he is at the Dutch Classic and the air is good; watch out!
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

I always thougnt that automatics had an weightbreak in modified classes,are they gone nowdays?