Consolidating Classes

[X-TECH MAN]

Stick and automatics should be rated the same. Its the same friggin' engine.

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

Stick and automatics should be rated the same. Its the same friggin' engine.

I agree.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

Stick and automatics should be rated the same. Its the same friggin' engine.

I disagree. Some engines simply work much better with a stick than they do an automatic. Some engines work well either way. Considering the wide variation of bore/stroke ratios, rod/stroke ratios, carburetor sizes, and cylinder head CSA's, just to name a few factors, to say that all engines work equally well with sticks and automatics is simply a generalization that cannot be true, nor can it be supported.

[Owen S Quirion]

Mike, In order to put the FWD's in the other RWD classes properly they would need to drop the HP ratings appropriately. That way the weight breaks would be correct. All the FWD cars would move down some classes to the appropriate indexes.

[Mike Carr]

Owen, that would probably work. My shipping weight is 3,444, and the NHRA and factory rating is 170, so I'm a natural U/SA (20 pounds), with a 14.85 Index. I'd only need 13 hp taken off (down to 157), to make V at 22 pounds.

Hope all is well up in NY.

[Jim Wahl]

This FWD thing is really getting old! I was involved in the revamp several years ago when NHRA wanted to eliminate FWD altogether. They went from 16 classes to 4 (then 5 now 6 as of Jan.) and combined sticks with autos. Also shared with RWD in the .3 index reduction.They have paid the price! Leave them alone! RWD classes have not suffered at all (except for the index reduction). In fact more classes have been added since then. Leave FWD alone!!! Jim

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Jim Wahl

This FWD thing is really getting old! I was involved in the revamp several years ago when NHRA wanted to eliminate FWD altogether. They went from 16 classes to 4 (then 5 now 6 as of Jan.) and combined sticks with autos. Also shared with RWD in the .3 index reduction.They have paid the price! Leave them alone! RWD classes have not suffered at all (except for the index reduction). In fact more classes have been added since then. Leave FWD alone!!! Jim

Jim,
They CAN be fairly and correctly merged into the other classes. Math works the same regardless of which end you put the slicks on. The argument that FWD cannot be merged into the lower classes of Stock holds no more water than the argument that you can't buy cams, rings, pistons, and converters for them. None. Both of those arguments hold less water than a screen door on a submarine.

There is established average ET data for the FWD cars just like there is for RWD cars. Therefore they can be properly factored.

No, the laws of math and physics apply to FWD cars too, they can race in classes with RWD cars.

[Owen S Quirion]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Jim,
They CAN be fairly and correctly merged into the other classes. Math works the same regardless of which end you put the slicks on. The argument that FWD cannot be merged into the lower classes of Stock holds no more water than the argument that you can't buy cams, rings, pistons, and converters for them. None. Both of those arguments hold less water than a screen door on a submarine.

There is established average ET data for the FWD cars just like there is for RWD cars. Therefore they can be properly factored.

No, the laws of math and physics apply to FWD cars too, they can race in classes with RWD cars.

Alan, You are kind of right and kind of wrong. You make a good point with the availability of cams, converters, etc... but just in case I've missed something for the last few years, where would I find let's say a set of 4.88, 5.00, or 5.13 gears because I would like a nice set. That would allow me to run a slick with a decent contact patch instead of the tiny little 20 inch tall M/T's that I have to run today in order to mask the fact that I can't get a little bit of gear. Maybe you never thought about why all of the FWD cars run the small tires, now you know. The other thing you need is a little physics refresher, yes the math works but the physics don't. You see, all cars whether FWD or RWD react the same way under acceleration, the reaction causes the front end to rise, thus helping the RWD gain traction with the big gear and the big tire. The FWD is just the opposite and very challenging to correct within the rules. I won't even get in to Fuel Cell placement and Battery relocation advantages. So, yes they could be merged but it would need to be done at the HP level, believe me.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Owen S Quirion

Alan, You are kind of right and kind of wrong. You make a good point with the availability of cams, converters, etc... but just in case I've missed something for the last few years, where would I find let's say a set of 4.88, 5.00, or 5.13 gears because I would like a nice set. That would allow me to run a slick with a decent contact patch instead of the tiny little 20 inch tall M/T's that I have to run today in order to mask the fact that I can't get a little bit of gear. Maybe you never thought about why all of the FWD cars run the small tires, now you know. The other thing you need is a little physics refresher, yes the math works but the physics don't. You see, all cars whether FWD or RWD react the same way under acceleration, the reaction causes the front end to rise, thus helping the RWD gain traction with the big gear and the big tire. The FWD is just the opposite and very challenging to correct within the rules. I won't even get in to Fuel Cell placement and Battery relocation advantages. So, yes they could be merged but it would need to be done at the HP level, believe me.

I never said anything about gears. But, I'm guessing when you need gears no one makes, you get people together and have them made, like the RWD guys do, the 4.75 and 5.00 gears for 12 bolt Chevy, or 5.57 for Dana 60, for example. Go find yourself a sharp transmission guy, and someone with a gear shaper, and change the ratios in your transmission. Someone will make lower gear sets for you.

Again, there is data out there to quantify the average FWD ET just like there is for the RWD cars. If you can quantify an average ET, you can calculate a weight break to put a car in the class it belongs in. It still does not matter what end the slicks are on. You can change the HP rating, or you can use a factor to multiply or divide whatever number you need to use in order to calculate the weight break.

I don't need a physics refresher, Owen, I know all about weight transfer. The exact same laws of physics apply, they just don't work in favor of the FWD cars, I never said they did, you just assumed I did. You can get springs, struts, shocks, or anything else like that made, just like the RWD cars do. The people that make parts for RWD cars will make them for your FWD car, your money spends just exactly like ours does. They can buy the same gas and groceries with your money they can with anyone elses. you can use shock valving and spring rates to slow or prevent weight transfer just like the RWD cars can use it to improve weight transfer.

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Owen S Quirion

Alan, You are kind of right and kind of wrong. You make a good point with the availability of cams, converters, etc... but just in case I've missed something for the last few years, where would I find let's say a set of 4.88, 5.00, or 5.13 gears because I would like a nice set. That would allow me to run a slick with a decent contact patch instead of the tiny little 20 inch tall M/T's that I have to run today in order to mask the fact that I can't get a little bit of gear. Maybe you never thought about why all of the FWD cars run the small tires, now you know. The other thing you need is a little physics refresher, yes the math works but the physics don't. You see, all cars whether FWD or RWD react the same way under acceleration, the reaction causes the front end to rise, thus helping the RWD gain traction with the big gear and the big tire. The FWD is just the opposite and very challenging to correct within the rules. I won't even get in to Fuel Cell placement and Battery relocation advantages. So, yes they could be merged but it would need to be done at the HP level, believe me.

Well said Owen, but much to our dismay M/T no longer makes the 20" tall slicks...the 8" wide ones were sold out, and I bought two of the last 3 slicks that M/T had in their online "Garage Sale" section, this past summer (unless the mail order folks have large enough quantities of them for our benefit?). When those wear out, I'm going to have to start using the D.O.T. 22" or "24" tires they have available, or change my wheel size to use other slick sizes that might fit, from Goodyear, or M&H?