Consolidating Classes

[Jim Wahl]

This FWD thing is really getting old! I was involved in the revamp several years ago when NHRA wanted to eliminate FWD altogether. They went from 16 classes to 4 (then 5 now 6 as of Jan.) and combined sticks with autos. Also shared with RWD in the .3 index reduction.They have paid the price! Leave them alone! RWD classes have not suffered at all (except for the index reduction). In fact more classes have been added since then. Leave FWD alone!!! Jim

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I disagree. Some engines simply work much better with a stick than they do an automatic. Some engines work well either way. Considering the wide variation of bore/stroke ratios, rod/stroke ratios, carburetor sizes, and cylinder head CSA's, just to name a few factors, to say that all engines work equally well with sticks and automatics is simply a generalization that cannot be true, nor can it be supported.

Dosent matter....If it wont run with an automatic then put a stick in it. Most dont use the clutch anyway. The engine is just an air pump. In time with cam changes and tunning the ones that wont work well with an automatic will work. If its a small engine then allow a wt. break for the lower classes. How else ar ya going to get these new combos hit by the AHFS before we all die of old age? One lb breaks would help and being allowed to run the natural class only would go a long way in helping to bring back some sposors. The status que isnt working. So what is the answer?

[Paul Wong]

I cant agree with Mark more. Class winners only. You will see plenty "quality" lower class cars then. If we keep asking for changes we will be bracket one and two.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Paul Wong

I cant agree with Mark more. Class winners only. You will see plenty "quality" lower class cars then. If we keep asking for changes we will be bracket one and two.

X 2 Agreed ! That would help the AHFS do its job and make winning class mean something again.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

Dosent matter....If it wont run with an automatic then put a stick in it. Most dont use the clutch anyway. The engine is just an air pump. In time with cam changes and tunning the ones that wont work well with an automatic will work. If its a small engine then allow a wt. break for the lower classes. How else ar ya going to get these new combos hit by the AHFS before we all die of old age? One lb breaks would help and being allowed to run the natural class only would go a long way in helping to bring back some sposors. The status que isnt working. So what is the answer?

One pound weight breaks is entirely different from saying engines work the same regardless of the transmission. One pound weight breaks are fine, they're a good idea. Arbitrarily deciding to factor engines the same, regardless of the transmission is another thing entirely.

Cam changes will not change rod/stroke ratio, bore/stroke ratio, or other factors, and make them equal. It just simply won't work. You cannot, for example, make a 302 Ford work as well in front of a C4 as you can in front of a 4 speed. You cannot make that happen with a cam change.

And you cannot just go sticking additional weight breaks in for various combinations everywhere. Exactly how complex and convoluted do you want to make this? I thought the idea was to make fewer classes, fewer weight breaks, and more heads up races. Add 100 pounds for one engine, in one car, with a manual transmission, or take 100 pounds off of a different engine in a different car, with an automatic, just to try to make engines that don't work well with an automatic somewhat competitive? You cannot possibly be serious.

If it won't run with an automatic, put a stick in it? So, now it's okay to just pencil a guys combination dead? Excuse me, isn't that what we're trying to prevent?

And you're NEVER going to make the AHFS get all the new stuff in line. NEVER. They'll make however many new combinations every year they feel they need to. They never even have to build the cars or the engines, just sell the parts. If you think the new AHFS and changing weight breaks will stop that, well, you're going to be really disappointed.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Jim Wahl

This FWD thing is really getting old! I was involved in the revamp several years ago when NHRA wanted to eliminate FWD altogether. They went from 16 classes to 4 (then 5 now 6 as of Jan.) and combined sticks with autos. Also shared with RWD in the .3 index reduction.They have paid the price! Leave them alone! RWD classes have not suffered at all (except for the index reduction). In fact more classes have been added since then. Leave FWD alone!!! Jim

Jim,
They CAN be fairly and correctly merged into the other classes. Math works the same regardless of which end you put the slicks on. The argument that FWD cannot be merged into the lower classes of Stock holds no more water than the argument that you can't buy cams, rings, pistons, and converters for them. None. Both of those arguments hold less water than a screen door on a submarine.

There is established average ET data for the FWD cars just like there is for RWD cars. Therefore they can be properly factored.

No, the laws of math and physics apply to FWD cars too, they can race in classes with RWD cars.

[Owen S Quirion]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Jim,
They CAN be fairly and correctly merged into the other classes. Math works the same regardless of which end you put the slicks on. The argument that FWD cannot be merged into the lower classes of Stock holds no more water than the argument that you can't buy cams, rings, pistons, and converters for them. None. Both of those arguments hold less water than a screen door on a submarine.

There is established average ET data for the FWD cars just like there is for RWD cars. Therefore they can be properly factored.

No, the laws of math and physics apply to FWD cars too, they can race in classes with RWD cars.

Alan, You are kind of right and kind of wrong. You make a good point with the availability of cams, converters, etc... but just in case I've missed something for the last few years, where would I find let's say a set of 4.88, 5.00, or 5.13 gears because I would like a nice set. That would allow me to run a slick with a decent contact patch instead of the tiny little 20 inch tall M/T's that I have to run today in order to mask the fact that I can't get a little bit of gear. Maybe you never thought about why all of the FWD cars run the small tires, now you know. The other thing you need is a little physics refresher, yes the math works but the physics don't. You see, all cars whether FWD or RWD react the same way under acceleration, the reaction causes the front end to rise, thus helping the RWD gain traction with the big gear and the big tire. The FWD is just the opposite and very challenging to correct within the rules. I won't even get in to Fuel Cell placement and Battery relocation advantages. So, yes they could be merged but it would need to be done at the HP level, believe me.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Owen S Quirion

Alan, You are kind of right and kind of wrong. You make a good point with the availability of cams, converters, etc... but just in case I've missed something for the last few years, where would I find let's say a set of 4.88, 5.00, or 5.13 gears because I would like a nice set. That would allow me to run a slick with a decent contact patch instead of the tiny little 20 inch tall M/T's that I have to run today in order to mask the fact that I can't get a little bit of gear. Maybe you never thought about why all of the FWD cars run the small tires, now you know. The other thing you need is a little physics refresher, yes the math works but the physics don't. You see, all cars whether FWD or RWD react the same way under acceleration, the reaction causes the front end to rise, thus helping the RWD gain traction with the big gear and the big tire. The FWD is just the opposite and very challenging to correct within the rules. I won't even get in to Fuel Cell placement and Battery relocation advantages. So, yes they could be merged but it would need to be done at the HP level, believe me.

I never said anything about gears. But, I'm guessing when you need gears no one makes, you get people together and have them made, like the RWD guys do, the 4.75 and 5.00 gears for 12 bolt Chevy, or 5.57 for Dana 60, for example. Go find yourself a sharp transmission guy, and someone with a gear shaper, and change the ratios in your transmission. Someone will make lower gear sets for you.

Again, there is data out there to quantify the average FWD ET just like there is for the RWD cars. If you can quantify an average ET, you can calculate a weight break to put a car in the class it belongs in. It still does not matter what end the slicks are on. You can change the HP rating, or you can use a factor to multiply or divide whatever number you need to use in order to calculate the weight break.

I don't need a physics refresher, Owen, I know all about weight transfer. The exact same laws of physics apply, they just don't work in favor of the FWD cars, I never said they did, you just assumed I did. You can get springs, struts, shocks, or anything else like that made, just like the RWD cars do. The people that make parts for RWD cars will make them for your FWD car, your money spends just exactly like ours does. They can buy the same gas and groceries with your money they can with anyone elses. you can use shock valving and spring rates to slow or prevent weight transfer just like the RWD cars can use it to improve weight transfer.

[Owen S Quirion]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I never said anything about gears. But, I'm guessing when you need gears no one makes, you get people together and have them made, like the RWD guys do, the 4.75 and 5.00 gears for 12 bolt Chevy, or 5.57 for Dana 60, for example. Go find yourself a sharp transmission guy, and someone with a gear shaper, and change the ratios in your transmission. Someone will make lower gear sets for you.

Again, there is data out there to quantify the average FWD ET just like there is for the RWD cars. If you can quantify an average ET, you can calculate a weight break to put a car in the class it belongs in. It still does not matter what end the slicks are on. You can change the HP rating, or you can use a factor to multiply or divide whatever number you need to use in order to calculate the weight break.

I don't need a physics refresher, Owen, I know all about weight transfer. The exact same laws of physics apply, they just don't work in favor of the FWD cars, I never said they did, you just assumed I did. You can get springs, struts, shocks, or anything else like that made, just like the RWD cars do. The people that make parts for RWD cars will make them for your FWD car, your money spends just exactly like ours does. They can buy the same gas and groceries with your money they can with anyone elses. you can use shock valving and spring rates to slow or prevent weight transfer just like the RWD cars can use it to improve weight transfer.

Alan, I guess a little more free schoolin' is in order. I built my own gears many years ago to give myself a 4.14 ratio, and I hate to even mention it because you should already know but there is no differential in these like a RWD. so it is not quite as simple as making a ring and pinion. That would be childs play. Strut valving done long ago and yes they are valved opposite of a RWD. I built the car for the challenges and I'm pretty clever, no need to suggest that I don't understand how it's done. You'd be quite a ways off base.

[junior barns]

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

Dosent matter....If it wont run with an automatic then put a stick in it. Most dont use the clutch anyway. The engine is just an air pump. In time with cam changes and tunning the ones that wont work well with an automatic will work. If its a small engine then allow a wt. break for the lower classes. How else ar ya going to get these new combos hit by the AHFS before we all die of old age? One lb breaks would help and being allowed to run the natural class only would go a long way in helping to bring back some sposors. The status que isnt working. So what is the answer?

I like this idea!!!!!