Where are the lower class cars?

[goinbroke2]

I think, in a nut shell that the upper classes are filled with people who can afford it. The middle by people who are doing what they can to be as fast as they can. The lower classes by low buck or entry level people. I realise this is a generalisation, but in most cases it fits.
That being said, I really enjoy slower/oddball/different combo's, moreso than the A-E/S.
I enjoy watching the big wheelstands from the older ponycars/musclecars, but other than that my heart is with the R or T and down Stockers.

So why is there less slower cars? Sure they might be less competetive or less likely to win, but that has always been the case. Less performance parts? Sure but again that's not new. So what is it? I would say the upper classes can still afford it, period. The middle classes are running less but can still scrape by with less update/upgrades. The lower classes, who could only scrape together the bucks to run when they can with what they can, just can't afford it in these times.
Any "enhancement" that cost $$$ can be absorbed by the big bucks guys (who coincidentily are running upper classes) but ask a lower class guy? Then it's "man I have to find another $1000 somewhere so I'll be legal again".

Maybe I'm just cheap, but I love the underdogs/lower classes.
(Was digging around in some old boxes of mags recently and found the Stock/Superstock mag with Steve Polhills interview with the Escort, excellent!)

(Oh and for the record, yes I'm tired of seeing 69 camaro's.) LOL

[Dwight Southerland]

Here is another observation. When you consider the cost of building a full high tech car, there is little difference in the cost of building a 4-bbl V8 of any variety. What I mean is, if you are building a small block Chevy, for example, there is little difference to build a 305 smogger as it is to build a top of the line high performance version. The cost of the pistons, rods, valve train, heads, machine work, suspension, roll bar/cage, transmission, accessories, trick parts, etc. etc. is the same for the 305 that runs high elevens as it is for a ten second combination. The same for about any manufacturer. So why spend all that time and money on a mid to high eleven second car when you can go tens for the same $$? The are anomalies to those characteristics, but I would dare say that Wade Owens' 283 M/SA cost just as much as a competitive C or D car. It's not until you get away from some of the basic standard 4-bbl V8 costs that things change dramatically. Now I know that an FE Ford or a Hemi costs more than a small block Chevy, but as a rule you will have some basic core costs that are the same. That is a major reason why more faster cars are built.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Here is another observation. When you consider the cost of building a full high tech car, there is little difference in the cost of building a 4-bbl V8 of any variety. What I mean is, if you are building a small block Chevy, for example, there is little difference to build a 305 smogger as it is to build a top of the line high performance version. The cost of the pistons, rods, valve train, heads, machine work, suspension, roll bar/cage, transmission, accessories, trick parts, etc. etc. is the same for the 305 that runs high elevens as it is for a ten second combination. The same for about any manufacturer. So why spend all that time and money on a mid to high eleven second car when you can go tens for the same $$? The are anomalies to those characteristics, but I would dare say that Wade Owens' 283 M/SA cost just as much as a competitive C or D car. It's not until you get away from some of the basic standard 4-bbl V8 costs that things change dramatically. Now I know that an FE Ford or a Hemi costs more than a small block Chevy, but as a rule you will have some basic core costs that are the same. That is a major reason why more faster cars are built.

Dwight,true to a point about costs.But how many 305 cores (blocks,heads,intakes,cranks,
etc) can you buy for the cost of a 396/375,427 any hp rating,for that matter a 390 AMC?
I believe for the most part lower class stockers are built by guys with not a lot to spend.My car,which I bought for $125 came only in the class guide with a 258 6 cylinder.If I wanted to build a 1969 SC/Rambler (390 4 speed only) a ragtag original car would be over $10K.
Even a clone rambler non post car commands a good buck,for a rambler.
I built my car on my small budget.I've had a moderate amount of success in the past 11 years.I've worked hard at finding a way (with a lot of help from Tom Goldman) to get the car to run the number on the window.I think we've succeded at that.Now I need to race more to get the tree down again.Any car can be successful,fast or slow,with the right driver with the right mindset.

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

Dwight,true to a point about costs.But how many 305 cores (blocks,heads,intakes,cranks,
etc) can you buy for the cost of a 396/375,427 any hp rating,for that matter a 390 AMC?
I believe for the most part lower class stockers are built by guys with not a lot to spend.My car,which I bought for $125 came only in the class guide with a 258 6 cylinder.If I wanted to build a 1969 SC/Rambler (390 4 speed only) a ragtag original car would be over $10K.
Even a clone rambler non post car commands a good buck,for a rambler.
I built my car on my small budget.I've had a moderate amount of success in the past 11 years.I've worked hard at finding a way (with a lot of help from Tom Goldman) to get the car to run the number on the window.I think we've succeded at that.Now I need to race more to get the tree down again.Any car can be successful,fast or slow,with the right driver with the right mindset.

Well said Ed!

[Michael Beard]

I just wanted to verify that you can't win with a slow car.




.... but you can Runner-Up!

Had a great weekend with the Turismo at the IHRA Pro-Am at Dunn-Benson, falling to World Champ Richard Alford in the finals. Ran back to back .91's in qualifying, and it was heading for .93's and .94's all day today until it grew legs in the finals.

Had a fairly productive test session with the new Super Stock combination in the Volare, too. 10 runs under our belt, picked it up .22 and 5 mph from start to finish, and we already know a bunch more things we need to do. Overall, felt like we didn't do too bad for complete EFI newbies. Thanks to Southland Speed, Sloan Racing Engines, and the large number of people who were kind enough to let us tickle their brains. Oh yeah, Richard got me 2nd round of Super Stock, too. Great job as always, bud!

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

I just wanted to verify that you can't win with a slow car.




.... but you can Runner-Up!

Had a great weekend with the Turismo at the IHRA Pro-Am at Dunn-Benson, falling to World Champ Richard Alford in the finals. Ran back to back .91's in qualifying, and it was heading for .93's and .94's all day today until it grew legs in the finals.

Had a fairly productive test session with the new Super Stock combination in the Volare, too. 10 runs under our belt, picked it up .22 and 5 mph from start to finish, and we already know a bunch more things we need to do. Overall, felt like we didn't do too bad for complete EFI newbies. Thanks to Southland Speed, Sloan Racing Engines, and the large number of people who were kind enough to let us tickle their brains. Oh yeah, Richard got me 2nd round of Super Stock, too. Great job as always, bud!

Yes You Can, and you can ask those racers you beat about that....

As for Richard, there's always next time (with both cars).... x2

[Dwight Southerland]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

Dwight,true to a point about costs.

Any car can be successful,fast or slow,with the right driver with the right mindset.

I tried to communicate your point about costs, Ed. What I was trying to get at was if you were going to build a car from scratch, there's not much difference in price in a fully tricked out fast car (say a D-E/S Duster) and a fully tricked out slower car of the same genre (say an O/S Volare SW).

Your second statement that I quoted from you is right on. Determination and desire are maybe more valuable than speed or dollars. I don't expect the people who are currently competing in those upper classes to sell their cars and build something that would be 3-4 seconds slower, I just want to encourage participation. If we make it look like you have to spend $25K + to even be able to participate and win, then we will lose a very important part of the soul of Stock Class racing. When I started, if I thought I had to build a late model muscle car to be able to compete and win, I would never have stepped into the arena. However, a good friend of mine partnered with me and we build a car for $2300 that won the first points race we participated in.

Great job, Michael Beard, on the runner up this last week-end!

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Determination and desire are maybe more valuable than speed or dollars

Dwight, I've been in a couple of interesting discussions recently with old friends who happen to have "expensive" Stockers which could be pointing at a trend. Over breakfast with friend #1, he asks me how inexpensively I could build a lower classed Stocker for him because he's "afraid of breaking his E/F/G Stocker because it's too expensive to fix". I told him 5 grand if he could find a body, he's thinking about it but he'd like to sell his $$$ Stocker first. Friend #2 wants to know if he can borrow one of my cars so that he can race more often because his D/E/F Stocker requires lots of maintainance and he's afraid of taking an AHFS hit.
It seems to me ( in my own little world), I'm sorry to say, that the majority of people that are interested in lower classed Stockers are no longer looking for a competitive advantage or even a place to hide. They want something for nothing that they don't have to work on, spend money on or maintain but they can race the wheels off of.
I've always said that "I'll help anybody that will help themselves" and I'm proud to be able to say that I've helped a couple of young men get a start and do things in this sport that I'll never be able to do but they had the "drive and work ethic" to advance themselves beyond what I could teach them. I run into people all of the time who tell me how "great" they are and if only I could "give them a car" they could be killers.
Oh well, I guess to end I should just say Stockers can still be built for a minimum investment but a lot of work and if anyone would like my help,"I'll help anybody that will help themselves". BTW if you're a dreamer or a slacker, don't waste my time.
(Friends #1 and #2 let me know what you want to do, you're friends)

[Jim Wahl]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Dwight, I've been in a couple of interesting discussions recently with old friends who happen to have "expensive" Stockers which could be pointing at a trend. Over breakfast with friend #1, he asks me how inexpensively I could build a lower classed Stocker for him because he's "afraid of breaking his E/F/G Stocker because it's too expensive to fix". I told him 5 grand if he could find a body, he's thinking about it but he'd like to sell his $$$ Stocker first. Friend #2 wants to know if he can borrow one of my cars so that he can race more often because his D/E/F Stocker requires lots of maintainance and he's afraid of taking an AHFS hit.
It seems to me ( in my own little world), I'm sorry to say, that the majority of people that are interested in lower classed Stockers are no longer looking for a competitive advantage or even a place to hide. They want something for nothing that they don't have to work on, spend money on or maintain but they can race the wheels off of.
I've always said that "I'll help anybody that will help themselves" and I'm proud to be able to say that I've helped a couple of young men get a start and do things in this sport that I'll never be able to do but they had the "drive and work ethic" to advance themselves beyond what I could teach them. I run into people all of the time who tell me how "great" they are and if only I could "give them a car" they could be killers.
Oh well, I guess to end I should just say Stockers can still be built for a minimum investment but a lot of work and if anyone would like my help,"I'll help anybody that will help themselves". BTW if you're a dreamer or a slacker, don't waste my time.
(Friends #1 and #2 let me know what you want to do, you're friends)

Another "nugget" from Billy! Well said my friend! Jim

.

[Dennis P Chapman]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Dwight, I've been in a couple of interesting discussions recently with old friends who happen to have "expensive" Stockers which could be pointing at a trend. Over breakfast with friend #1, he asks me how inexpensively I could build a lower classed Stocker for him because he's "afraid of breaking his E/F/G Stocker because it's too expensive to fix". I told him 5 grand if he could find a body, he's thinking about it but he'd like to sell his $$$ Stocker first. Friend #2 wants to know if he can borrow one of my cars so that he can race more often because his D/E/F Stocker requires lots of maintainance and he's afraid of taking an AHFS hit.
It seems to me ( in my own little world), I'm sorry to say, that the majority of people that are interested in lower classed Stockers are no longer looking for a competitive advantage or even a place to hide. They want something for nothing that they don't have to work on, spend money on or maintain but they can race the wheels off of.
I've always said that "I'll help anybody that will help themselves" and I'm proud to be able to say that I've helped a couple of young men get a start and do things in this sport that I'll never be able to do but they had the "drive and work ethic" to advance themselves beyond what I could teach them. I run into people all of the time who tell me how "great" they are and if only I could "give them a car" they could be killers.
Oh well, I guess to end I should just say Stockers can still be built for a minimum investment but a lot of work and if anyone would like my help,"I'll help anybody that will help themselves". BTW if you're a dreamer or a slacker, don't waste my time.
(Friends #1 and #2 let me know what you want to do, you're friends)

Very well said Billy still looking for the T/A.