Where are the lower class cars?

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Michael - Regulations ? I don't see it .

Two easy examples: The elimination of deep staging and the consolidation of FWD classes.

(Unrelated) Do you still have your Ventura?

[Dwight Southerland]

Gary -

You have zeroed in on the very good points that need to be restated ever so often so racers can mulch that stuff around in their reasoning brains. Though not all the time, often a very competitive low class car can be built and maintained for far less $ than a competitive high class car. That is not a hard and fast rule, but it is possible, as executed very well by some of the people who have posted on this thread. That should bear enough hope within it to give some people reason to not give up. There are associated challenges mechanically and emotionally that go with the territory of the slower classes that need to be faced, but I doubt if those challenges are as daunting as facing a competitive field in those faster classes that are highly refined, well financed, well supported in the performance industry, and the continuing target of new factory releases that are engineered and politicked to be dominant.

Some of the reasons that NHRA Sportsman drag racing (Stock Eliminator especially) has been so unique in the field of motor sports is that it is possible for participants to share the stage and the competitive arena with the highest performing examples of the sport in a nationally competitive arena with an entry that can be personally owned and created by commonly affordable incomes. You can race against the best of the best (within your unique little niche) in front of a huge audience on a nationally promoted level and claim a victory. The glory associated with that needs to be fully recognized, heralded and defended with extreme enthusiasm. It's similar to the person winning an Olympic medal for table tennis (ping pong). While that winner may not get the same ink and the public attention of the downhill skier or the 100 meter sprinter, that gold medal is exactly the same as his more illustrious competitor.

Those racers who fight for performance and victory in those slower classes have a grit and glory that is not known in the places where the rewards of money and public approval are abundant. All Stock Eliminator competitors know that feeling of satisfaction to some extent because the category as a whole is somewhat unrewarded. But those in the 13 or 14 second or slower classes know it even more fully. I personally do not ever what to see that go away and I applaud and encourage ever one of those people who have the courage to fight there.

My nickel soapbox.

[Billy Nees]

Wow! Dwight, that speech deserves a big "Attaboy".

[Jack McCarthy]

i second that :"atta boy"

just not the same anymore, all about money not talent
class wins and records mean absolutely nothing anymore

jack

and why would i want to go to that god forsaken, slow ***, billy goat mountainside track ?

[Jack Matyas]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

Two easy examples: The elimination of deep staging and the consolidation of FWD classes.

(Unrelated) Do you still have your Ventura?

Michael - You became a World Champion without deep staging so is it needed ? And the FWD class elimination was because there were just too many classes - don't you agree ?

As for my Ventura - I sold it at a time when I just owned too many cars and my health was in the toilet .A stupid move on my part - sure wish I had it back ....................

[Richard Grant]

Jack, some of the nudges are:
1. eliminating running all classes at all national events. In the past if there were two or three fairly close national events, you could choose the one that best fit your schedule or needs.
2. Reducing the index's by .3. Now many cars that could barely run their index can't make the break especially if the weather doesn't cooperate.
3. Eliminating the attitude factors making it even more difficult to run under the index.
4. Increasing entry fees in a down ecomony.
5. Changing the AHPS so there is no place where you can run fast without receiving HP. It's taking the fun out of racing for many racers.
6. Fewer and fewer tracks which causes longer drives at higher gas prices.
Other factors have been stated and I am sure that other factors have not been pointed out.
The reason that race attendance is down is not one big factor even considering the factory cars. It's a bunch of little things done by people who don't understand what motivates the average sportsman racer. Many things are out of NHRA's control but this considered they must first make the right decisions about the things that are under their control.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Michael - Regulations ? I don't see it

Jack, the "Regulations are there and you're seeing them. You're just not understanding the repercussions of them (just like the tech dept.) on the "non hi performance" based combos.
Just some easy to explain new regs., replacement heads, carbs, transmissions, ceramic lifters, non stock valvesprings and valve train. All of these things don't help a "restricted" engine combo one bit. My Pontiac came with a metric trans in it to my advantage, now any GM gains my advantage with no benefit to me. I don't get a replacement aluminium head or aftermarket carb, no benefit. Exotic aftermarket valvetrain parts don't help me either as my engines don't want to RPM any more than they do now.
Now before you go getting all defensive please understand, I know that there are benefits to the combos that I run and I'm not complaining about the new regs.(rules) I'm just stating in fact that they are (intentionally or not) increasing the performance gap between the upper and lower class combos. (lower class being a relative term)

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Michael - You became a World Champion without deep staging so is it needed ?

...with a low 11-sec crate motor car each time, neither of which qualifies as a lower class car. We've spent a great deal of time on the phone discussing reaction times, even in regards to a fast car like yours. How many people do you think could hit the tree, both good and consistent, in a lower classed car without deep staging? There aren't too many people out there wired like Billy Nees (insert your own joke here).

The elimination of deep staging wasn't a stroke of the pen that eliminated slow cars and instituted factory race cars overnight. It was a nudge that was just one contribution to a chain of events, in my opinion. It wasn't long after deep staging was eliminated that you started to see a number of drivers move from lower class cars to faster cars. (always exceptions of course, like Lang) Not saying it's right or wrong, but it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy: The more people that chose to run fast cars, the more people felt like they needed fast cars to compete. Obviously, each individual has their own reasons for building a given car, but it seems that the many people are led to the same conclusion. There has been a definite change in the general makeup of the field since I started racing.

And the FWD class elimination was because there were just too many classes - don't you agree ?

Yes and no. I think there are too many classes as a whole, but that's another discussion that has already been debated and is currently dead on arrival. Both then and now, there are reasonable ways to handle consolidation of classes. Going from 16 classes to 5 (and the way in which it was implemented) was overkill. The irony is that many people feel it was ok for the FWD cars, but it's fought against strongly when the same idea is applied to other cars. There was a decent number of FWD cars out there when I got started. Where are they now? Is it reasonable for a car to be 225# heavy for one class and 400# light for the next? Is it reasonable for a car that could run -1.000 under the old format now run -.30 under? Would either of these examples be tolerated for a B/SA combination?

Was there a downside to "too many" FWD classes before outside of Class singles? While it is after the fact, today's Class Eliminations structure eliminates that issue. What would the effect of a more reasonable class structure be today? Does it help or hurt the sport or class? 'Who cares about FWD cars anyway? It's just a couple of cars.' A couple of cars here and a couple of cars there, gone (for a multitude of different reason), and you wonder why we have discussions about car counts...

The horse may have already left the barn. The level of competition today and the cumulative years of strategic knowledge (two things intertwined) are ultimately going to lead the majority of people to build faster cars. Does it help or hurt the sport when the Billy Nees's of the sport are gone? The only thing driving cars back down into lower (more like mid-range) classes right now, in my opinion, is the prospect of numerous heads-up runs in the growing ranks of the upper classes.

$.02,

[Jack Matyas]

Originally Posted by Richard Grant

Jack, some of the nudges are:
1. eliminating running all classes at all national events. In the past if there were two or three fairly close national events, you could choose the one that best fit your schedule or needs.
2. Reducing the index's by .3. Now many cars that could barely run their index can't make the break especially if the weather doesn't cooperate.
3. Eliminating the attitude factors making it even more difficult to run under the index.
4. Increasing entry fees in a down ecomony.
5. Changing the AHPS so there is no place where you can run fast without receiving HP. It's taking the fun out of racing for many racers.
6. Fewer and fewer tracks which causes longer drives at higher gas prices.
Other factors have been stated and I am sure that other factors have not been pointed out.
The reason that race attendance is down is not one big factor even considering the factory cars. It's a bunch of little things done by people who don't understand what motivates the average sportsman racer. Many things are out of NHRA's control but this considered they must first make the right decisions about the things that are under their control.

Richard - Lets try this one item at a time
1) - There are just not enough cars to run class at every national event
2)The .3 reduction was for everyone- not just the lower class cars .
3)Again the factors are for everyone
4)So you want more money with lesser entry fees - how will that work ?
5)You want it both ways - on one hand you say you can't run fast without the factors and on the other you want to run fast without penalty .
6)Fewer tracks and gas prices affect everyone .

And yes , the NHRA ( and any other sanctioning body ) must make wise decisions but they must be good for everyone including them .

Somehow even with writing this there are those who have their own agenda and I feel like I'm pissing in the wind ............pretty strong words even from me !

[Richard Grant]

OK, Jack by the numbers.
1. When I say all classes, I am talking about all Super classes, Super Stock, Stock, etc.
2. Yes, the reduction affected everyone. There are cars in all classes that cannot run the index now that they have been reduced. All I am saying is that reduces the number of racers that can compete. Why would NHRA want to make a change that reduces participation?
3. I agree.
4. I didn't mention more money. Just not raising entry fees.
5. I can run plenty fast enough to run with the new index's. I was pointing out that this is another way that NHRA is reducing participation.
6.Yes
My point was not only aimed at the lower class cars even though this thread is. After the comment about how nhra is nudging more and more racers out of racing, I was pointing out how they are nudging out racers from many areas.
BTY Jack, I don't have a problem with you personally. In the past I supported NHRA every way that I could as you are doing. Have fun, keep racing as long as your finances and health allow. I just wanted to point out how NHRA is hurting itself and many racers with it's decisions.