Access to AMA Shipping Weights?

[KRatcliff]

Originally Posted by SS/GSI

So, if you are a 1993 to 2002 F body competitor, and you are OK with one make, model, platform car getting a 300# +/- advantage on you, then I guess I will have to be OK with it...IF you are OK with adding 300-400#'s to your ride while fully well knowing that there are documents and simple mathematics out their to make the Firebirds, detailed above, not have to do it as well, because of some unknown bias and/or legal threat, than I guess I will have to be OK with it too.

Short answer to your question above is yes because it doesn't give that combo any performance advantage over my combo. The weight classification will only affect the natural class and what other two classes they can run. The HP factor stays the same.

My combo was affected by the change, but I am still able to run the same class as before. I just cannot go any higher or quicker classes at this time.

[james schaechter]

Originally Posted by SS/GSI

J.R., I simply used the 2015 as an example of the "entire" guide NOT being properly revised...the 2015 376ci Camaro is a factory street version car, not a "paper" car(COPO, Dragpak, CJ), yet it still was not corrected by NHRA.

Clearly a lot to unpack on this issue, but this example and a few others are great examples of how some combos just got lucky depending on how you view it.

I would expect anyone running a Pontiac GTO with a LS would appreciate the weight loss that the Camaro got somehow.

I think now that the shock and awe has hit over this topic there will have to be some process that works and makes sense, even if it is a shipping weight with a plus or minus variance of some sort.

Clearly ,there were decades of deals made here rather than a process that could be understood by all.

Hopefully some good comes out of this transparency. So many say and I agree that one of the key responsibilities of a sanctioning body is to apply rules in a clear and consistent manner.

At least this is an attempt to apply process.

[Allen Wilson III]

Originally Posted by KRatcliff

Short answer to your question above is yes because it doesn't give that combo any performance advantage over my combo. The weight classification will only affect the natural class and what other two classes they can run. The HP factor stays the same.

My combo was affected by the change, but I am still able to run the same class as before. I just cannot go any higher or quicker classes at this time.

It does give the combo an advantage that it can run in a class that it shouldn't be allowed to run if the shipping weight is not correct. I'm not claiming to be a shipping weight expert.... but it helps the entire LT1 combo avoid heads-up runs and HP adjustments. If it's not an advantage, then why not just go to GT rules?

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by SS/GSI

SIDE NOTE: The 2015 Camaro 376ci(which runs A, B and C/SA)MVMA Shipping Weights is 3946#'s NOT 3320#'s!!!

This argument goes back to 2009 when I purchased one of the very first BIW Camaros. There was some heated discussion about the shipping weight. The gentleman at Chevrolet would not listen and submitted the 2010 Camaro at around 3,800 lbs. without driver.

At that time, nobody had really done anything with one of these cars. Since I knew that Chevrolet wanted to build the COPO, I tried to get them to work with me to come up with an NHRA accepted rear suspension. My emails went unanswered.

In 2011 I purchased a zero option 1 SS Camaro. It weighed around 3600 lbs. minus driver. At the PRI Show I crawled under the COPO and measured the rear suspension. I then went to Bruce at NHRA and worked with him to make it legal for the 2010 Camaro. I went home and built it. All the time sharing with Bruce.

Before I got the car finished the whole COPO thing happened...

In 2015 I ordered two new 2016 cars. I decided to park the 2012 because of it's unique history. That left the 2014. I reached out to Chevrolet about putting all the Camaros in the guide. They settled on the 2015.

With all of the knowledge gained in those years it was obvious that a 2015 Camaro built within the current rules for Stock Eliminator would weigh around 2,800 lbs without driver. That's 1,100 lbs. from what you want and 800 lbs. from the 2012 car that I owned!! The decision was made to keep the ballast to no more than 500 lbs.

That is the way the 2015 Camaro got to that weight.

If the NHRA wants new cars in the Class guide, they have to make a weight concession for all of the stuff that can legally be removed.

OK, that's my version of history. One day I'll share my story on the LS3 engine specs......

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by GUMP

With all of the knowledge gained in those years it was obvious that a 2015 Camaro built within the current roles for Stock Eliminator would weigh around 2,800 lbs without driver. That's 1,100 lbs. from what you want and 800 lbs. from the 2012 car that I owned!! The decision was made to keep the ballast to no more than 500 lbs.

Ya know, you've brought up a good point and one that VERY few Racers know about. I doubt that many Techs even know this.

4:2 Ballast
Maximum amount of removable AND/OR permanent ballast, unless otherwise stated under Class Requirements, is 500 pounds.

I've had discussions with a few Racers over the years, mainly Fox body FFFFord racers who have told me that they have more weight than that to get to legal wt.
(I'm not picking on Fox body FFFFord combos, just trying to make a point)

When you race a FWD combo this gets to be an issue in a hurry!

[Bryan Worner]

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven

Not sure if this story is 100% true, but I was told that in 1998, GM racing had not fully developed the ls1 as part of their program. Pontiac racing opted to stick with the lt1 for the 1998 model year for their race cars. They never made any body in white “race only” Camaros, so they, along with all of the street trim cars, came with ls1 engines.

Then why can you run an LT1 in a 1998 Camaro Z28????

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Bryan Worner

Then why can you run an LT1 in a 1998 Camaro Z28????

A question that has been being asked since 1998!

[KRatcliff]

Originally Posted by Allen Wilson III

It does give the combo an advantage that it can run in a class that it shouldn't be allowed to run if the shipping weight is not correct. I'm not claiming to be a shipping weight expert.... but it helps the entire LT1 combo avoid heads-up runs and HP adjustments. If it's not an advantage, then why not just go to GT rules?

Please explain the bolded part. How does it help the entire combo avoid heads-up runs and HP adjustments? There are a lot of fast cars in A through E. The 2015 VIN Camaro and LS1 Vettes come to mind plus many others IE Larry's combo. There are a lot of them out there.

It appears to me that this aspect hasn't changed one bit. Another question. Do you think the LT1 automatic combo needs another HP adjustment added to it?

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by GUMP

With all of the knowledge gained in those years it was obvious that a 2015 Camaro built within the current rules for Stock Eliminator would weigh around 2,800 lbs without driver. That's 1,100 lbs. from what you want and 800 lbs. from the 2012 car that I owned!! The decision was made to keep the ballast to no more than 500 lbs.

And yet, when it's convenient for them, the manufacturers "manipulate" the weights and NHRA goes right along with them! Case-in-point,

2019 Challenger 1320 #3399 8.23 a nice natural A car that can make AA/A/B

2017 Challenger Hellcat #4500 7.50 natural AA car that can make A

Same car, #1100 difference between the two? It couldn't just be that Mopar was picking-and-choosing classes could it?

Larry, maybe you could ask your Mopar buddys about this (and your hood) and I'll find out about that .525 FFFFord cam.

[Bryan Worner]

Originally Posted by KRatcliff

Please explain the bolded part. How does it help the entire combo avoid heads-up runs and HP adjustments? There are a lot of fast cars in A through E. The 2015 VIN Camaro and LS1 Vettes come to mind plus many others IE Larry's combo. There are a lot of them out there.

It appears to me that this aspect hasn't changed one bit. Another question. Do you think the LT1 automatic combo needs another HP adjustment added to it?

This is a real easy one to explain so I’ll tackle it! Firebird can run SS/HA, Camaro can’t! So when they race each other, let’s say in the final of a national event, or a must win round in a points race, they won’t race heads up! Therefore, neither will have to lean on their combo, which is the same in both cars, to secure that all important round win! So they just race each other in bracket mode and continue on with the same factor. Allen, is that a good explanation???