Access to AMA Shipping Weights?

[SS/GSI]

I formally requested NHRA to look into the 1993-2002 Firebird Shipping Weight last winter. This shipping weight fiasco was created from the "body in white" program Pontiac had in the 90's and also while they were a major sponsor of NHRA.

I first asked for the 1998 Firebird to be reviewed, provided all MVMA Federal documentation, contact names and all sources to NHRA. I informed NHRA that once the '98 was reviewed, I would then be seeking reviews of all the 1993-2002 Firebird Shipping Weights.

NOTE: The reviewing of the entire MVMA shipping weights for the stock classification guide across all manufacturers was the sole decision of NHRA. NOT MINE

For decades everyone has known, mentioned and complained about the obviously doctored/distorted/favorable Shipping Weights in the guide, as they pertain to the 1993-2002 Firebirds. Between those years, the Firebirds are anywhere from 150-300#'s lighter than an identical Chevrolet Camaro, depending on the model, thus allowing them to run classes their "sister" car could not!

When NHRA and I began our correspondence, I believe there was skepticism from some people that the Stock Classification Guide could be this "off"; however once I began sending them the MVMA Documents, they became more receptive and understanding of my frustration with the guide.

In NHRA's defense, a majority of MVMA "sheets" over all the years were given to them by the performance departments from most manufacturers and obviously those manufacturers probably wanted their cars in favorable classes and or in the "faster" classes, therefore the discrepancy in many shipping weights. This information also wasn't available via the internet back then and was not disclosed publicly, due to the Information Act until lately. You have to remember that technology, computing and the transferring of information has come leaps and bounds over the last two decades.

I was also informed that NHRA was going to first roll out a statement mid January this year, probably on NHRA Racer.com, and it would detail that the shipping weights were being reviewed and updated for the entire guide, where documentation was available to do so. The new weights would only take affect January 1, 2023 and that once posted that all competitors would have a protest period of sorts(90-120days) to seek more clarification, explanations and/or contest the changes via discovery of new information, they themselves could provide to NHRA...Obviously as we all now know, that is not at all how it unraveled!!!

I do not apologize for requesting NHRA to look into my request. If you were affected, perhaps you should do some research and ensure that NHRA has made the right calculations...as Mr. Hill mentioned, people make mistakes. If you received a favorable shipping weight, I would also suggest making sure it is legit, seeing as your new and/or ex class competitors will want to make sure yours is correct as well.


NOW, HERE IS MY HUGE F@#KING PROBLEM!!!


Of all the cars that the shipping weights were changed on, and all the competitors which were affected...can you guess which one(s) were NOT???

The ONLY Shipping Weight untouched in this whole f#$king fiasco was the ONE car I asked to review in the 1st place!!! The 1998 Pontiac Firebird LT1 c/w Ram Air Hood(3050#/3011# SW). Also the 1995-1997 Firebird FireHawk LT1 c/w Ram Air Hood.


When I asked NHRA why they would not touch this car that;

A. Never Existed(1998 LT1)

B. Manufacturer No Longer Exists

C. A hood is making an almost 300# difference in SW

They responded that its a "paper" car, that their has been a 20+ year precedence for its shipping weight and they would not want a lawsuit to form over implementing a new and more realistic shipping weight on it!!! So what about the precedence for the 30+, 40+ and 50+ year old combos???

But then why did the 1995-1997 Firebird Firehawk remain 3050#'s...I have those MVMA Documents Directly from the Pontiac/GM Archives and that car weighs North of 3250#'s for all 3 years in question?!?!

I also gave NHRA the MVMA documents as it pertains to the LT1 vs LS1 engine weight. The LT1 weighs 88#'s MORE THAN the LS1(steel block LT1 vs aluminum block LS1 +++). Therefore it would only make sense for the LT1 ALLOWED ENGINE Combination in a 1998 Firebirds to run 88#'s heavier shipping weights than the LS1's, NO???!!!


So, NHRA changes the entire Stock Classification Guide but leaves out the car requested for review...sounds about right!!!

So, if you are a 1993 to 2002 F body competitor, and you are OK with one make, model, platform car getting a 300# +/- advantage on you, then I guess I will have to be OK with it...IF you are OK with adding 300-400#'s to your ride while fully well knowing that there are documents and simple mathematics out their to make the Firebirds, detailed above, not have to do it as well, because of some unknown bias and/or legal threat, than I guess I will have to be OK with it too.

Don't bother or waste your $$$ to threaten to sue NHRA over all of this. All they will do is get rid of all shipping weights in STK & SS, like they have in GT/Modified and then its case closed.

...or maybe that is what NHRA hope comes of all of this??? One less thing to do!



SIDE NOTE: The 2015 Camaro 376ci(which runs A, B and C/SA)MVMA Shipping Weights is 3946#'s NOT 3320#'s!!!

[Doug Hoven]

Not sure if this story is 100% true, but I was told that in 1998, GM racing had not fully developed the ls1 as part of their program. Pontiac racing opted to stick with the lt1 for the 1998 model year for their race cars. They never made any body in white “race only” Camaros, so they, along with all of the street trim cars, came with ls1 engines.

[Bryan Worner]

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven

Not sure if this story is 100% true, but I was told that in 1998, GM racing had not fully developed the ls1 as part of their program. Pontiac racing opted to stick with the lt1 for the 1998 model year for their race cars. They never made any body in white “race only” Camaros, so they, along with all of the street trim cars, came with ls1 engines.

Then why can you run an LT1 in a 1998 Camaro Z28????

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Bryan Worner

Then why can you run an LT1 in a 1998 Camaro Z28????

A question that has been being asked since 1998!

[Jack Matyas]

Originally Posted by Bryan Worner

Then why can you run an LT1 in a 1998 Camaro Z28????

Bryan - As being one of the guys running a Firebird in those days here is the poop.They 'allowed' the using of LT1's because of an engine shortage at GM - I myself could not receive one until way into 1989 .

[Bryan Worner]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Bryan - As being one of the guys running a Firebird in those days here is the poop.They 'allowed' the using of LT1's because of an engine shortage at GM - I myself could not receive one until way into 1989 .

I get that and did know that, i was just referring to the debate as to why the Pontiac was able to run it compared to the Camaro, which was an actual car. Since the Pontiac was a "paper car" it was allowed to run the LT1. The Camaro is not a "paper car" so why is it allowed to run an engine that was not offered with that year and model???

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Bryan Worner

Then why can you run an LT1 in a 1998 Camaro Z28????

Its still in the guide....

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven

Not sure if this story is 100% true, but I was told that in 1998, GM racing had not fully developed the ls1 as part of their program. Pontiac racing opted to stick with the lt1 for the 1998 model year for their race cars. They never made any body in white “race only” Camaros, so they, along with all of the street trim cars, came with ls1 engines.

The 1998 GM Performance Parts Catalog page 180.

24502480 - Current Model Year Camaro Z-28 Body in White

[Larry Hill]

Rory we do spend more than you would think on Glass Cleaner.

[Doug Hoven]

Originally Posted by GUMP

The 1998 GM Performance Parts Catalog page 180.

24502480 - Current Model Year Camaro Z-28 Body in White

I stand corrected. I wonder what the ratio of Firebirds to Camaro body in white cars sold is. It seems like the Firebirds were a more popular purchase.