index lowering

[AveryMcLawhorn]

Originally Posted by Herbie Null

Great job on the data Avery, it really shows how we as a collective group can askew the data in performance when a certain percentage try to get their average below .850 so a HP hit does not come our way. When you take a look at INDY qualifying the last 2 years it would be cool to see how that data aligns with yearly AHFS data. Indy data to me would be the real performance data since the AHFS is turned off. I really believe nothing is coming from all of this, just continue to slow those cars down for the averages is the new game.

Last Data post maybe ��. Cause I am a man of my word, Herbie I did one better and looked at the last 5 years. Here is the simple version of the data. Note I removed any runs that were not below the index to limit the sample bias. Please look at the attachments as trying to transpose tables does not work very well. There are things to consider when looking at the data like weather conditions.

Year # of Cars On Q Sheet Top Qualifier Bottom Qualifier in Field Average under index Total Total Runs Counted Class Runs Average Class Runs Count

Year # of Cars On Q Sheet Top Qualifier Bottom Qualifier in Field Average under index Total Total Runs Counted Class Runs Average Class Runs Counted
2019 139 -1.762 -0.675 -0.883 690 -0.936
2020 129 -1.355 3.446 -0.794 474 -0.871
2021 132 -1.104 -0.208 -0.747 528 -0.774
2022 141 -1.690 -0.366 -0.853 682 -0.933
2023 139 -1.640 -0.599 -0.881 698 -0.946
2024 148 -1.626 -0.607 -0.822 722 -0.833

[DG]

People seem to be missing the point that gaming of the AHFS is rampant resulting in the following problems:

1. The AHFS is not functioning as intended to bring parity
2. With so many cars letting off at 1000' its beginning to look like a .90 category and losing fan appeal.
3. Its not fun for performance oriented racers to detune their cars most of the year to lower their average so they can safely run fast on just a few runs each year.
4. Stock and SS are losing their appeal to performance oriented racers which may be hurting participation of long time racers
5. Due to weak tech, some racers are claiming combinations they do not have, but willing to hurt the HP rating on
6. If a racer decides to bomb an engine HP rating, many other racers are hurt financially and competitively through no fault of their own

I am sympathetic to those that are trying to race on a tight budget or chose a race car that hasn't had the same level of benefit of NHRA approved aftermarket parts. But I do appreciate any attempt by NHRA to rectify the above problems. I like lowering the stock indexs 3 tenths, with the same -.86 trigger, as a simple way to allow me to run the car fast and have more fun. That said, their are certainly numerous other tweeks the NHRA could do such as raising the trigger to -1.0 and lowering indexes less that could work.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by DG

5. Due to weak tech, some racers are claiming combinations they do not have, but willing to hurt the HP rating on
6. If a racer decides to bomb an engine HP rating, many other racers are hurt financially and competitively through no fault of their own

Gee, where ever did you get that idea?

[Allen Wilson III]

NHRA can change whatever they want, but the AHFS will never work because the NHRA doesn?t incentivize racers enough to penalize themselves. It will only work if they have it at events like Indy, and that ruins all of the fun. Racers aren?t going to penalize themselves for no reason, and NHRA won?t fix combos as they need adjusted, so we will just continue to make meaningless tweaks to the system.

[Mark Lewis]

Years Ago,(Monty Bogan) I had a 74 Nova. 350/265 hp, While in Jim Marshall,s study hall one day we were looking at the classification guide and the engine blue print specs for an up coming test. I discovered a California camshaft option for my car, All other specs were the same and cam was slightly bigger, duration and lift were checked then.
Jim looked it over and said that looked pretty good to him as it was only 260hp. So I claimed the lower HP and was #1 qualifiers at Atlanta
Got to go thru a thorough inspection and I was only 48 under then to be #1. I thought I was a big dog then. But 2 weeks later I saw where the HP committee made both combos 275 hp.
Suddenly went from LSA to KSA,
Point being they had a HP committee that looked all the time and not once a year, Get ratings in line and let everybody run as fast as they want.
Thats the story of the day For Bogan and Mark Alvey lol

[StockerStang912]

Avery - great work and really awesome to see actual data get brought to the discussion.

There's certainly been a drop-off to 2015 levels after the initial post-IHRA growth.

SS STK
2015 945 1,442
2018 1,130 1,476
2019 1,139 1,472
2022 968 1,304
2023 979 1,320

[Sean Cour]

As I read through all these posts, not one has said Stock and Super Stock is a performance category with a lot of advancements made in the last ten to twenty years to raise the performance levels! We that are reasonable quick make adjustments to ?slow down? our hot rods to keep from hitting the combos. I used to love the races where we could ?learn? what our hot rods wanted. Not anymore, as it?s all about protecting the combo, while some ?millionaire? goes out and behaves like a teenager in a whorehouse with a wallet full of cash!
If we can?t seem to keep these combos in line, move weight breaks to one pound breaks and keep the indexes the same! Separate the men from the boys, so to speak. Heads-ups will give hits and adjust accordingly!

[HR9121]

Originally Posted by DG

People seem to be missing the point that gaming of the AHFS is rampant resulting in the following problems:

1. The AHFS is not functioning as intended to bring parity
2. With so many cars letting off at 1000' its beginning to look like a .90 category and losing fan appeal.
3. Its not fun for performance oriented racers to detune their cars most of the year to lower their average so they can safely run fast on just a few runs each year.
4. Stock and SS are losing their appeal to performance oriented racers which may be hurting participation of long time racers
5. Due to weak tech, some racers are claiming combinations they do not have, but willing to hurt the HP rating on
6. If a racer decides to bomb an engine HP rating, many other racers are hurt financially and competitively through no fault of their own

I am sympathetic to those that are trying to race on a tight budget or chose a race car that hasn't had the same level of benefit of NHRA approved aftermarket parts. But I do appreciate any attempt by NHRA to rectify the above problems. I like lowering the stock indexs 3 tenths, with the same -.86 trigger, as a simple way to allow me to run the car fast and have more fun. That said, their are certainly numerous other tweeks the NHRA could do such as raising the trigger to -1.0 and lowering indexes less that could work.

The AHFS worked fine when my combination got an additional 13 HP tacked on in a 4 year stretch. The problem arose when racers started lobbying for changes and you ended up with what we have now. Pretty much anyone that gets HP under the system as it stands now either doesn't care, is an idiot or just a really bad mistake.
I get everyone wants to go fast at Indy but it is really the only race where there is something on the line worth getting hit for and we don't even count that data!
Let's face it if you got a car running more than 1.20 under at Indy it needs refactoring if you're trying to establish parity.