New HP

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by bsa633

Have you seen alot of Hemi-Cuda's or Challengers latley??those were the cars i was talking about if you read my post.. I doubt anyone seriously will try to "get in the match" as long they have a 457 hp factor..looks dead to me!!

LOOKED at them? I know a guy locally who runs a REAL one. Yes, he carries a lot of weight. But it runs pretty damned well, especially considering he has not really thrashed on it. Like I said, word is Henson was already at the weight currently required when he made the pass. Yes, he made it hard on everyone else running the combination. But no, he didn't completely kill it, and no, everyone didn't quit running it.

[Bruce Noland]

Over the years Bobby and the Sorensen brothers have raced their cars at Indy.

Also please take a look at the west coast race schedule before putting too much weight into who shows up at Indy. They begin racing very early out there. Racers' fatigue sets in by early summer and a lot of them take a break until the fall races. Many fast racers have made the journey out west for the early and late racing season where they have locked horns with Bobby and the Sorensen brothers.

Bobby has flogged that blue Camaro as hard as any one has ever flogged a stocker and his results have been nothing short of exceptional - AA/SA record holder and first class AA/SA class winner since the return of the class. And don't forget that little 9 second run he made a few years ago - after that run he had the first, if not the only, video taped tear down.

[Jared Jordan]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

LOOKED at them? I know a guy locally who runs a REAL one. Yes, he carries a lot of weight. But it runs pretty damned well, especially considering he has not really thrashed on it. Like I said, word is Henson was already at the weight currently required when he made the pass. Yes, he made it hard on everyone else running the combination. But no, he didn't completely kill it, and no, everyone didn't quit running it.

That was some of the best air anyone's ever seen when Henson ran the 9.89 at Belle Rose. Ask him. He'll tell you the same thing.

That combo at 457 hp is a total waste of time if you want to be "the guy" in A or AA/SA. Yes, it is still somewhat competitive and a good one will still go fairly fast, but not fast enough. Why do you think West/Henson built the GTX? Fred even tried to put a 4-speed in the Challenger to get around the HP factor. Think he would have done all of that if he thought he could go to Indy and win at 457 hp?

I know how much power those motors make (had a few of them on our dyno) and let me tell you Fred's motor had the same hp as the other ones that I've seen dyno'd. Why haven't you heard about the other ones? They were done after Fred's and now weigh 3840 lbs in A/SA.

[Chuck Beach]

Evan Smith is exactly right, it will never be perfect and really can't be adjusted that would make much difference. I have posted on here many times about this subject. Here is the list again:

1) we don't all go to the same machine shop
2) we don't all run the same combination
3) we don't all run the same brand
4) we don't all have equal OEM 'replacement parts' (heads, blocks, etc.)
5) we don't all spend the same amount of money
6) we don't all put the same time and effort into our combo
7) we don't all race at the same races where the conditions could be mind shaft or really bad
8) we don't all run our race cars on kill all the time nor do we want to because of the wear and tear, so it only makes sense to back them down if no heads up are involved
9) we don't all race the same number of races each year, so the data is not consistant
10) there are not the same number of cars that make up each combo, some have 2 or 3 cars (ie. 340) while others have 50 or more (ie. 305's)
11) we don't all own our own machine shops

So with this in mind are we trying to

1) create a socialist class (everyone is the same regardless of time, money and effort)
2) penalize the racers that work hard, spend the time and money to be the best
3) throw out what this class was built on ..... PERFORMANCE

Race and SHUT UP ....

[SS Engine Guy]

Originally Posted by Chuck Beach

3) throw out what this class was built on ..... PERFORMANCE

Race and SHUT UP ....

You will never have a PERFORMANCE class when performance is based on shoe polish and a system of random numbers (hp factors) manipulated by the brake pedal, timing or excess ballast. However, I can fully understand trying to protect your combo under such a system. Truthfully no one should be able to protect a combo in a perfect world. (ET vs. MPH)

[Ed Fernandez]

Come on Kevin.You know that John is smart enough to lift when he has to.The AHFS is preety much in black and white.
Geez and easy with those question marks,i'm getting dizzy.

Ed

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Jared Jordan

That was some of the best air anyone's ever seen when Henson ran the 9.89 at Belle Rose. Ask him. He'll tell you the same thing.

That combo at 457 hp is a total waste of time if you want to be "the guy" in A or AA/SA. Yes, it is still somewhat competitive and a good one will still go fairly fast, but not fast enough. Why do you think West/Henson built the GTX? Fred even tried to put a 4-speed in the Challenger to get around the HP factor. Think he would have done all of that if he thought he could go to Indy and win at 457 hp?

I know how much power those motors make (had a few of them on our dyno) and let me tell you Fred's motor had the same hp as the other ones that I've seen dyno'd. Why haven't you heard about the other ones? They were done after Fred's and now weigh 3840 lbs in A/SA.

Jared, I'm well aware of the conditions under which Fred made that pass. I'm not sure it was better than the mine shaft air seen at Atco or Mission. The fact remains that very few people will be "the man", regardless of the combination.

The Challenger, with the Hemi, with 2 four barrel carbs, and Hemi heads with big valves, (the Hemi has 2.25 and 1.94 valves compared to 2.19 and 1.84 for the 427, or 2.19 and 1.88 for the ZL-1 and L-88, not to mention nearly twice as much available carburetion)has to weigh 190 pounds more than the 427 Camaro with aluminum heads in A/SA, only 110 pounds more than a ZL-1 Camaro, and only 150 pounds more than an L-88 Corvette. In AA/SA, the Challenger has to weight 3595, 162 pounds more than a 427 Camaro with aluminum heads, 87 pounds more than a ZL-1 Camaro, and 125 pounds more than an L-88 Corvette. Word is there are a couple of really nasty ZL-1 and L-88 cars in the works (Calabro and Fasano are already fast, and Craig Couris is no daisy, either), and there are so few of those cars out there that if any of them hit the trigger, they'll get HP.

And honestly, the 427 Chevy and the Hemi are probably both out of luck to be top dog in A/SA or AA/SA, IF one of the other combinations really wants it. My guess is if Barton or Shaul really want to step up, they can take class and/or the record, the only question is if they want it enough. There might even be a Ford or two that can do it.

Honestly, I hated to see the Hemi get hit, and I know Fred did not mean to do it.

[Jared Jordan]

Allen,

Didn't mean to imply that the Hemi was the only over-factored combo in A or AA/SA. I know the 427 has been worked just as hard (if not harder...) than the Street Hemi has been. I'll never forget the weekend Bobby D dropped into the 9's for the first time. We were all rooting for him. I'm also well aware of the differences between the two engines. Believe it or not, I do know a little (emphasis on "little") about Chevrolets! LOL

The Max Wedge and NASCAR Hemi are better combos than the Street Hemi in the Challenger/Barracuda. Due to the flaws in the AHFS system, the Street Hemi in the B-Body is still extremely competitive. I would even venture to say that's the best combo for the class at the moment. Barton's car is very fast and I know Shaul's is as well, but I'm not certain that the Street Hemi can't outrun them in a B-Body.

The A and AA/SA wars should get very interesting in the next couple of years when the new Mustangs and Challengers start popping up. Then we can start this whole debate all over again.

[Larry Hill]

This has been some fun reading.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Larry Hill

This has been some fun reading.

Larry, you're too easily amused.

Hope you, Patsy, and the family had a good Thanksgiving. I may have something for you, but I need to make sure it's worth fooling with.