Bob Shaw is a bad man

[Jack Matyas]

Billy - For once you and I agree -- combo's like the Seville need more than a bump but who is to say what is the right amount ? It's very hard to just pick out a number and assign it without making junk out of that combo -- have you a fair way ?

PS -- FYI -- all LT1's (in Stock) with an automatic transmission are factored at 341 horsepower not 325 as stated .

[Billy Nees]

Well Jack, the old way of just "handing you 10" in the staging lanes wasn't fair but 3.25% at a time will in some cases take forever. Again I have to use Bob as a "whipping post" to make my point but his combo won't even make the top of U/SA until it is factored to 209 HP (it's now at 186). That looks like 4 more -1.40 hits until it makes the top of the class! It has to be hit to 220 HP to push it out of U. No Jack I don't know what the answer is to keep it fair but I'm going to have to say that something in the middle? Sorry I don't know it all, if I did I'd be you!

[Bruce Noland]

Billy,
I agree!

[Jack Matyas]

Billy - once again I agree but there are no rules in place to hit a Horsepower factor that hard .On top of that if you got that car out of "U" and into "T" it would still be very fast for that class and we would have the Eddie Fernandezs' out there complaining about him in their class .
Not to take anything away from Bob Shaw but his driving at Belle Rose was not terrific and he would soon rack up those four hits you were speaking of this problem would take care of itself .The same goes for the new CobraJets -- not all are factory drivers and they will want to flex their muscles -- then the AHFS will work like it should .Its' human nature -- if 'ya got it...flaunt it ! ! !

[Billy Nees]

So Jack, what you're telling me is that it's OK with you to put new combos in the guide at an unreasonably low factor and wait oh, 10-15 years or so to maybe sort them out? I'm far and away NOT a good business man but that just doesn't seem to be the correct way to be treating your (NHRA's) customers. Oh that's right! we're not customers we're Participents!

[Jack Matyas]

Billy -- No , I'm not telling you to wait 15 years but untill you or someone comes up with a fair system of factoring we have to utilize what we do have .Its very easy to use strong words but solving the problem is the issue here -- you can't just assign horsepowers willy-nilly -- have you forgotten what it was like during the "Farmer" days ? That was not fun ! ! ! And yes , we are customers -- in their ballpark ...............

[Billy Nees]

Well Jack what would YOU propose? Bruce? Kenny? Evan?Anybody? Let's hear it! Maybe this should be a new thread?

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Billy - once again I agree but there are no rules in place to hit a Horsepower factor that hard .On top of that if you got that car out of "U" and into "T" it would still be very fast for that class and we would have the Eddie Fernandezs' out there complaining about him in their class .
Not to take anything away from Bob Shaw but his driving at Belle Rose was not terrific and he would soon rack up those four hits you were speaking of this problem would take care of itself .The same goes for the new CobraJets -- not all are factory drivers and they will want to flex their muscles -- then the AHFS will work like it should .Its' human nature -- if 'ya got it...flaunt it ! ! !

Jack;
In case you weren't aware of it Bob's car runs T frequently and has since he's had it.I've never complained
about it,or John Ruth or Capt. Jack or any other T car.My car is as fast as it will ever be on my minuscule budget.One thing I'm proud of was a PM from someone congratulating me on how fast my 6 cylinder runs
in a class dominated by V-8s.And you know it is all Tom G.who makes it possible.
And of course Billy is on the right track.

Ed

[Evan Smith]

Billy,

I know this is long, but you asked. No one liked the old system (human input) because people stated that favorites were played, and no one seems to like the current system (alleged automatic system) because it doesn't work as effectively as it should. My opinion is that it should be a combination of both, as this is the only way to make the minute and major changes in a reasonable amount of time. And no one wants to hear this, but EVERY run needs to count so NHRA can gather real data, not sandbagging data from national events. Most of us run far more opens and points races so that is where the data should come from. Many racers only run two, maybe three, nationals a year, if any, so it becomes easy to hold back. If all the runs counted then you could only hold back so much and the AHFS would be working it's magic every race weekend.

I have had numerous conversations with NHRA officials about hp factoring. For instance I argued that the 440-6 should carry the same hp factor for the Cuda/Challenger as is does for the B-body. It is the exact same engine in both, but the B-body carries 417, I believe the Cuda/Challenger is 406 or 407. If Bruce's 350 (leaf-spring Camaro) and a Corvette are counted together with totally dissimilar engine setback and suspension, how could they not count the Cuda/Challenger and the B-body with similar engine/trans layout? All I got when I laid this logic on them is "that hp change was done before the new system was in place so we can't do anything about it." Come on, it is their sand box, they can do whatever they want. The idea is to keep racing fair and both of those combos should race with the same HP, whether it is 407 or 417. I'm beginning to think no one at NHRA wants to solve the real problems we are facing.

I'm not here to bash NHRA, but the fact remains that it wouldn't take a big effort to improve things. I tried like hell to work on the triggers and got nowhere. I tried to allow us to have more than 100 lbs removable weight and got nowhere. If you can move three classes, who cares if the weight is welded in or bolted in properly? The problem is we need someone in NHRA to be in COMMAND of the Stock/Super Stock rules and hp factoring. All it takes is NHRA to assign this position to an intelligent soul who understands our cars and what it is like to tow to a race, to spend money and race these classes. Then this person can work with the SRAC members to make simple but effective decisions. But sadly, I just don't see this happening.

Evan

[Billy Nees]

Evan, I can appreciate all that you have tried to do in regards to the AHFS. I also agree that all runs should count and that all HP factors should be based on the engine combo and not body specific.I do not agree that we need a "human touch" for the simple fact that it will be just a matter of time before Racer X gets factored for disagreeing with Tech Inspector Y. I've been around long enough to remember things like that. I also think that we need to include the altitude factored tracks in the equation or if NHRA doesn't have enough faith in its factors then do away with them completely.