M.g.

Jack Matyas · 05-26-2009, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarysZ24

Jack,

I'm not sure what all would be in Marks book (answering your question), but I think I know one or two things that've changed when you guys started doing this level of racing:

1. The aftermarket made a lot more products for slower cars to use in Stock/Super Stock than they do now---remember when Hooker Headers produced headers for Chevy FWD V6's? Ask Linda Sherman about them since she had them on her Citation, back in the '90's before she sold the car to Randy Hyman.

2. We don't have the luxury of a variety of slick sizes like the faster class cars do as well, and I don't know of any radial slicks being made that are clearance legal for Stock that fwd's or cars such as Lane Weber's "Skyhawk" can use...do you? If so please tell me who makes them, so I can shop for them...

3. Even the big three's high-performance catalogs had products that would be legal for slower rollers to use in our classes back then..(i.e. the Mopar stuff for the 2.2's, and parts for the GM 90 & 60 degree V6's, and their 2.0 4cyl engines--after all, the Archer brothers were terrors in I.M.S.A. racing back in the 80's with their Cavaliers with those engines...).

Gary -- I feel your pain but the facts remain -- we have choices to make and one of them is to pick a class where you can do well -- when alot of us started doing this we didn't buy parts from a catalogue-- we made them .As for the "Big 3 " being involved -- well thats over -- there bankrupt and its doubtful they'll be back( maybe with the exception of Ford Motor Co.) -- its not the Eighties anymore .

bill dedman · 05-26-2009, 09:26 AM

Eddie Rezak said, "Why not insert a blue bulb, in between the last yellow, and the green? About 1-3 seconds or so, after the second car has left, and one or both foul, let the computer turn on the appropriate green or red bulbs, and declare the winner! "

The winner will already have been declared instantly, AFTER the second car to leave, launches: a big, red, light will be glowing in one lane of the other, but not until after the second car to leave has left the line.
That is, assuming one, or both of the cars went "red."

I don't see the advantage in complicating this beyond that. It will operate just as it always has, except the worse red light will determine the winner and it will not come on until both cars have left the line.

Assuming a situation wherein BOTH cars red light, no red light would show until AFTER both cars have left rhe line... so there are NO DISTRACTIONS FOR EITHER DRIVER...

Once they've had their red lights compared by the computer (takes only a a microsecond) the red will then come on in whichever lane had the worse infraction and the win light willl show on the opposite scoreboard.

I can't see how adding another, different-colored (blue?) light would improve this very simple situation.

Bill

Harry 6674 · 05-26-2009, 09:43 AM

All this seems to be how NHRA does it, does IHRA have a better system or are they the same?

X-TECH MAN · 05-26-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry 6674

All this seems to be how NHRA does it, does IHRA have a better system or are they the same?

They are the same.

bill dedman · 05-26-2009, 02:09 PM

But this is NOT "how NHRA does it."

NHRA does it just like they did in 1963; in a handicapped race, if you leave first and red light, the race is over; the second car never has a chance to red light.

This "double red light" system would give BOTH cars an eqqual chance to red light and award the win to the driver with the least infraction, like they have done double breakouts, for years

Neither red light would come on until AFTER both cars had left the line, so as to not distract the second car to leave the line. It would be computer-activated and immediate.

It's just a way to give both cars an equal shot at the tree, even if the first car leaves before the green. The second car might leave even sooner before the green, but with the system we've had for the last 46 years, the second car to leave has enjoyed the "gift" of a win light no matter WHAT "his": light might have been, because the system already made the first car to leave the loser, when HE left too soon.

This situation happens very seldom, and no one would be aware of any change unless the second car to leave red lit worse than the first, on a double red light situation.

No changes of any kind would be necessary in the driving protocol for either driver.

Some day, they'll get around to making this change, but since it doesn't make NHRA any MONEY, it may NEVER happen... lol!

Ed Fernandez · 05-26-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dedman

But this is NOT "how NHRA does it."

NHRA does it just like they did in 1963; in a handicapped race, if you leave first and red light, the race is over; the second car never has a chance to red light.

This "double red light" system would give BOTH cars an eqqual chance to red light and award the win to the driver with the least infraction, like they have done double breakouts, for years

Neither red light would come on until AFTER both cars had left the line, so as to not distract the second car to leave the line. It would be computer-activated and immediate.

It's just a way to give both cars an equal shot at the tree, even if the first car leaves before the green. The second car might leave even sooner before the green, but with the system we've had for the last 46 years, the second car to leave has enjoyed the "gift" of a win light no matter WHAT "his": light might have been, because the system already made the first car to leave the loser, when HE left too soon.

This situation happens very seldom, and no one would be aware of any change unless the second car to leave red lit worse than the first, on a double red light situation.

No changes of any kind would be necessary in the driving protocol for either driver.

Some day, they'll get around to making this change, but since it doesn't make NHRA any MONEY, it may NEVER happen... lol!

Bill'
WHEN you raced,did you leave first or last usually.By the way you are attacking this issue it seems you were the slower car and lit the red bulb more than a few times.Why do you insist on stirring the pot when you are out of the loop?Sitting in the stands who redlights has no bearing on you what so ever,unless your friends all have first leavers.What's the story?
Also usually it's only an issue when the dials are close.Usually say a P car fouls to an A car if you look at the numbers the A car has a terrible light because
he saw the red light.

JHeath · 05-26-2009, 06:37 PM

Hey, Bill what if the driver with the least infraction is driving a 2008 Cobra Jet Mustang in stock eliminator?

bill dedman · 05-26-2009, 10:43 PM

QUOTE=Ed Fernandez;
"WHEN you raced,did you leave first or last usually?"

My car was a 15-pound per HP car (H/SA then, M/SA), so I'd say it was pretty much 50/50 at that time.

>>>"By the way you are attacking this issue it seems you were the slower car and lit the red bulb more than a few times.Why do you insist on stirring the pot when you are out of the loop?Sitting in the stands who redlights has no bearing on you what so ever,unless your friends all have first leavers.What's the story?"

The real story is, I didn't even drive my race car usually, because when I raced Stock Eliminator, they didn't weigh the driver... just the car. I weighed 220 pounds; I had a friend who was a decent driver who weighed 120 pounds... as you know, that's a solid tenth.. a car-length. My car wasn't fast enough to be giving away performance a car-length at a time, so I had him drive most of the time. Red lights were never a factor in my getting beat; a lack of horsepower WAS. lol!

As a rabid, wild-eyed fanatic of Stock Eliminator since 1955, I have been delighted by NHRA's modus operandi over the years to make things as fair as they reasonably could. Look at the multitude of ways NHRA has bent over backward to level the playing field for these cars WHEN THEY COULD.... to the extent of bouncing cars for valves that were a few thousandths of an inch too SMALL, to measuring breakouts in thousandths of a second... to weighing the components of the reciprocating assembly against a predetermined weight/value that cannot be manipulated.

All that monumental, and near-comprehensive effort, and then, this.... a simple-to-fix, one-sided rule that came into being in 1963, when there was no other way to operate, but has since, acquired an easy way to fix what's wrong with it, in the interest of continuing NHRA's philosophy of making racing as fair as they reasonably can.

I have no dog in this hunt, true; I'm just a Bracket racer for reasons financial, but that doesn't mean that my lifelong passion has no interest in seeing the kind of racing I so dearly love, being changed for the better (more fair), since the "fix" is cheap, easy, and won't affect ANYBODY'S driving style.

I can't think of a single reason not to fix it. It's not a "slow car vs. fast car" thing at all.... This crap happens every time an A car runs a B car...
EVERY TIME there's a race, unless it's heads-up, the second car to leave the line gets the advantage of MAYBE getting a free ride to the next round, if the first car red lights. He needs his chance to red light, too; even if the first car leaves too soon, just like in a double breakout.

There seems to me to be no reason, in 2009, to be doing the same cockeyed way of running things that they did in 1963, when they were doing it because they HAD to. We no longer have to...

It just seems stupid to me. But, that's just my German ancestry dictating my "logic circuits," I guess...

>>>"Also usually it's only an issue when the dials are close.Usually say a P car fouls to an A car if you look at the numbers the A car has a terrible light because he saw the red light

Well, with this system HE WON'T BE SEEING ANY RED LIGHTS because no red light will come on until AFTER both cars have left the line.

That is the THIRD time I have explained that in this thread, but nobody seems to "get it." I don't know if they just scan the highlights, don't pay any attention to what I write, because I am just some redneck goofball to them, with crazy, wild ideas, unworthy of consideration or that this double red light system is so foreign to what they're used to that it doesen't "register," but rest assured NOBODY will see a red light before BOTH cars have left the line.

To do it any other way would be patently UNFAIR to the second car to leave.

Double red lights are, and will always be, a seldom seen phenomenon. This rule wouldn't come into effect very often at all, and it is likely that nobody would even be aware that it was in place, unless there were a double red light.

If it never gets implemented, the world will still revolve the same way, and lots of other inequites will continue to exist in our drag racing world. This just seems like one that is an easy fix, and needs to be done in the sake of fairness to every first car to leave the line in any kind of handicap racing.

Beyond that, have a nice day!!! And, I mean that!

Bill

05-26-2009, 09:26 AM	#2
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: M.g. Eddie Rezak said, "Why not insert a blue bulb, in between the last yellow, and the green? About 1-3 seconds or so, after the second car has left, and one or both foul, let the computer turn on the appropriate green or red bulbs, and declare the winner! " The winner will already have been declared instantly, AFTER the second car to leave, launches: a big, red, light will be glowing in one lane of the other, but not until after the second car to leave has left the line. That is, assuming one, or both of the cars went "red." I don't see the advantage in complicating this beyond that. It will operate just as it always has, except the worse red light will determine the winner and it will not come on until both cars have left the line. Assuming a situation wherein BOTH cars red light, no red light would show until AFTER both cars have left rhe line... so there are NO DISTRACTIONS FOR EITHER DRIVER... Once they've had their red lights compared by the computer (takes only a a microsecond) the red will then come on in whichever lane had the worse infraction and the win light willl show on the opposite scoreboard. I can't see how adding another, different-colored (blue?) light would improve this very simple situation. Bill __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 05-26-2009 at 09:29 AM.

05-26-2009, 09:43 AM	#3
Harry 6674 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 589 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: M.g. All this seems to be how NHRA does it, does IHRA have a better system or are they the same?

05-26-2009, 02:09 PM	#5
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: M.g. But this is NOT "how NHRA does it." NHRA does it just like they did in 1963; in a handicapped race, if you leave first and red light, the race is over; the second car never has a chance to red light. This "double red light" system would give BOTH cars an eqqual chance to red light and award the win to the driver with the least infraction, like they have done double breakouts, for years Neither red light would come on until AFTER both cars had left the line, so as to not distract the second car to leave the line. It would be computer-activated and immediate. It's just a way to give both cars an equal shot at the tree, even if the first car leaves before the green. The second car might leave even sooner before the green, but with the system we've had for the last 46 years, the second car to leave has enjoyed the "gift" of a win light no matter WHAT "his": light might have been, because the system already made the first car to leave the loser, when HE left too soon. This situation happens very seldom, and no one would be aware of any change unless the second car to leave red lit worse than the first, on a double red light situation. No changes of any kind would be necessary in the driving protocol for either driver. Some day, they'll get around to making this change, but since it doesn't make NHRA any MONEY, it may NEVER happen... lol! __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 05-26-2009 at 02:13 PM.

05-26-2009, 06:37 PM	#7
JHeath Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 786 Likes: 2,876 Liked 370 Times in 101 Posts	Re: M.g. Hey, Bill what if the driver with the least infraction is driving a 2008 Cobra Jet Mustang in stock eliminator? __________________ Jerry Heath I/S '93 Cobra FS/J 2010 Mustang "Ebay CJ"

05-26-2009, 10:43 PM	#8
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: M.g. QUOTE=Ed Fernandez; "WHEN you raced,did you leave first or last usually?" My car was a 15-pound per HP car (H/SA then, M/SA), so I'd say it was pretty much 50/50 at that time. >>>"By the way you are attacking this issue it seems you were the slower car and lit the red bulb more than a few times.Why do you insist on stirring the pot when you are out of the loop?Sitting in the stands who redlights has no bearing on you what so ever,unless your friends all have first leavers.What's the story?" The real story is, I didn't even drive my race car usually, because when I raced Stock Eliminator, they didn't weigh the driver... just the car. I weighed 220 pounds; I had a friend who was a decent driver who weighed 120 pounds... as you know, that's a solid tenth.. a car-length. My car wasn't fast enough to be giving away performance a car-length at a time, so I had him drive most of the time. Red lights were never a factor in my getting beat; a lack of horsepower WAS. lol! As a rabid, wild-eyed fanatic of Stock Eliminator since 1955, I have been delighted by NHRA's modus operandi over the years to make things as fair as they reasonably could. Look at the multitude of ways NHRA has bent over backward to level the playing field for these cars WHEN THEY COULD.... to the extent of bouncing cars for valves that were a few thousandths of an inch too SMALL, to measuring breakouts in thousandths of a second... to weighing the components of the reciprocating assembly against a predetermined weight/value that cannot be manipulated. All that monumental, and near-comprehensive effort, and then, this.... a simple-to-fix, one-sided rule that came into being in 1963, when there was no other way to operate, but has since, acquired an easy way to fix what's wrong with it, in the interest of continuing NHRA's philosophy of making racing as fair as they reasonably can. I have no dog in this hunt, true; I'm just a Bracket racer for reasons financial, but that doesn't mean that my lifelong passion has no interest in seeing the kind of racing I so dearly love, being changed for the better (more fair), since the "fix" is cheap, easy, and won't affect ANYBODY'S driving style. I can't think of a single reason not to fix it. It's not a "slow car vs. fast car" thing at all.... This crap happens every time an A car runs a B car... EVERY TIME there's a race, unless it's heads-up, the second car to leave the line gets the advantage of MAYBE getting a free ride to the next round, if the first car red lights. He needs his chance to red light, too; even if the first car leaves too soon, just like in a double breakout. There seems to me to be no reason, in 2009, to be doing the same cockeyed way of running things that they did in 1963, when they were doing it because they HAD to. We no longer have to... It just seems stupid to me. But, that's just my German ancestry dictating my "logic circuits," I guess... >>>"Also usually it's only an issue when the dials are close.Usually say a P car fouls to an A car if you look at the numbers the A car has a terrible light because he saw the red light Well, with this system HE WON'T BE SEEING ANY RED LIGHTS because no red light will come on until AFTER both cars have left the line. That is the THIRD time I have explained that in this thread, but nobody seems to "get it." I don't know if they just scan the highlights, don't pay any attention to what I write, because I am just some redneck goofball to them, with crazy, wild ideas, unworthy of consideration or that this double red light system is so foreign to what they're used to that it doesen't "register," but rest assured NOBODY will see a red light before BOTH cars have left the line. To do it any other way would be patently UNFAIR to the second car to leave. Double red lights are, and will always be, a seldom seen phenomenon. This rule wouldn't come into effect very often at all, and it is likely that nobody would even be aware that it was in place, unless there were a double red light. If it never gets implemented, the world will still revolve the same way, and lots of other inequites will continue to exist in our drag racing world. This just seems like one that is an easy fix, and needs to be done in the sake of fairness to every first car to leave the line in any kind of handicap racing. Beyond that, have a nice day!!! And, I mean that! Bill __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 05-26-2009 at 10:50 PM.