M.g.

[bill dedman]

QUOTE=Ed Fernandez;
"WHEN you raced,did you leave first or last usually?"

My car was a 15-pound per HP car (H/SA then, M/SA), so I'd say it was pretty much 50/50 at that time.



>>>"By the way you are attacking this issue it seems you were the slower car and lit the red bulb more than a few times.Why do you insist on stirring the pot when you are out of the loop?Sitting in the stands who redlights has no bearing on you what so ever,unless your friends all have first leavers.What's the story?"

The real story is, I didn't even drive my race car usually, because when I raced Stock Eliminator, they didn't weigh the driver... just the car. I weighed 220 pounds; I had a friend who was a decent driver who weighed 120 pounds... as you know, that's a solid tenth.. a car-length. My car wasn't fast enough to be giving away performance a car-length at a time, so I had him drive most of the time. Red lights were never a factor in my getting beat; a lack of horsepower WAS. lol!

As a rabid, wild-eyed fanatic of Stock Eliminator since 1955, I have been delighted by NHRA's modus operandi over the years to make things as fair as they reasonably could. Look at the multitude of ways NHRA has bent over backward to level the playing field for these cars WHEN THEY COULD.... to the extent of bouncing cars for valves that were a few thousandths of an inch too SMALL, to measuring breakouts in thousandths of a second... to weighing the components of the reciprocating assembly against a predetermined weight/value that cannot be manipulated.

All that monumental, and near-comprehensive effort, and then, this.... a simple-to-fix, one-sided rule that came into being in 1963, when there was no other way to operate, but has since, acquired an easy way to fix what's wrong with it, in the interest of continuing NHRA's philosophy of making racing as fair as they reasonably can.

I have no dog in this hunt, true; I'm just a Bracket racer for reasons financial, but that doesn't mean that my lifelong passion has no interest in seeing the kind of racing I so dearly love, being changed for the better (more fair), since the "fix" is cheap, easy, and won't affect ANYBODY'S driving style.

I can't think of a single reason not to fix it. It's not a "slow car vs. fast car" thing at all.... This crap happens every time an A car runs a B car...
EVERY TIME there's a race, unless it's heads-up, the second car to leave the line gets the advantage of MAYBE getting a free ride to the next round, if the first car red lights. He needs his chance to red light, too; even if the first car leaves too soon, just like in a double breakout.

There seems to me to be no reason, in 2009, to be doing the same cockeyed way of running things that they did in 1963, when they were doing it because they HAD to. We no longer have to...

It just seems stupid to me. But, that's just my German ancestry dictating my "logic circuits," I guess...


>>>"Also usually it's only an issue when the dials are close.Usually say a P car fouls to an A car if you look at the numbers the A car has a terrible light because he saw the red light


Well, with this system HE WON'T BE SEEING ANY RED LIGHTS because no red light will come on until AFTER both cars have left the line.

That is the THIRD time I have explained that in this thread, but nobody seems to "get it." I don't know if they just scan the highlights, don't pay any attention to what I write, because I am just some redneck goofball to them, with crazy, wild ideas, unworthy of consideration or that this double red light system is so foreign to what they're used to that it doesen't "register," but rest assured NOBODY will see a red light before BOTH cars have left the line.

To do it any other way would be patently UNFAIR to the second car to leave.

Double red lights are, and will always be, a seldom seen phenomenon. This rule wouldn't come into effect very often at all, and it is likely that nobody would even be aware that it was in place, unless there were a double red light.


If it never gets implemented, the world will still revolve the same way, and lots of other inequites will continue to exist in our drag racing world. This just seems like one that is an easy fix, and needs to be done in the sake of fairness to every first car to leave the line in any kind of handicap racing.

Beyond that, have a nice day!!! And, I mean that!

Bill

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

QUOTE=Ed Fernandez;
"WHEN you raced,did you leave first or last usually?"

My car was a 15-pound per HP car (H/SA then, M/SA), so I'd say it was pretty much 50/50 at that time.



>>>"By the way you are attacking this issue it seems you were the slower car and lit the red bulb more than a few times.Why do you insist on stirring the pot when you are out of the loop?Sitting in the stands who redlights has no bearing on you what so ever,unless your friends all have first leavers.What's the story?"

The real story is, I didn't even drive my race car usually, because when I raced Stock Eliminator, they didn't weigh the driver... just the car. I weighed 220 pounds; I had a friend who was a decent driver who weighed 120 pounds... as you know, that's a solid tenth.. a car-length. My car wasn't fast enough to be giving away performance a car-length at a time, so I had him drive most of the time. Red lights were never a factor in my getting beat; a lack of horsepower WAS. lol!

As a rabid, wild-eyed fanatic of Stock Eliminator since 1955, I have been delighted by NHRA's modus operandi over the years to make things as fair as they reasonably could. Look at the multitude of ways NHRA has bent over backward to level the playing field for these cars WHEN THEY COULD.... to the extent of bouncing cars for valves that were a few thousandths of an inch too SMALL, to measuring breakouts in thousandths of a second... to weighing the components of the reciprocating assembly against a predetermined weight/value that cannot be manipulated.

All that monumental, and near-comprehensive effort, and then, this.... a simple-to-fix, one-sided rule that came into being in 1963, when there was no other way to operate, but has since, acquired an easy way to fix what's wrong with it, in the interest of continuing NHRA's philosophy of making racing as fair as they reasonably can.

I have no dog in this hunt, true; I'm just a Bracket racer for reasons financial, but that doesn't mean that my lifelong passion has no interest in seeing the kind of racing I so dearly love, being changed for the better (more fair), since the "fix" is cheap, easy, and won't affect ANYBODY'S driving style.

I can't think of a single reason not to fix it. It's not a "slow car vs. fast car" thing at all.... This crap happens every time an A car runs a B car...
EVERY TIME there's a race, unless it's heads-up, the second car to leave the line gets the advantage of MAYBE getting a free ride to the next round, if the first car red lights. He needs his chance to red light, too; even if the first car turns on the bulb, just like in a double breakout.

Ther'e seems to me to be no reason, in 2009, to be doing the same cockeyed way of running things that they did in 1963, when they were doing it because they HAD to. We no longer have to...

It just seems stupid to me. But, that's just my German ancestry dictating my "logic circuits," I guess...


>>>"Also usually it's only an issue when the dials are close.Usually say a P car fouls to an A car if you look at the numbers the A car has a terrible light because he saw the red light


Well, with this system HE WON'T BE SEEING ANY RED LIGHTS because no red light will come on until AFTER both cars have left the line.

That is the THIRD time I have explained that in this thread, but nobody seems to "get it." I don't know if they just scan the highlights, don't pay any attention to what I write, because I am just some redneck goofball to them, with crazy, wild ideas, unworthy of consideration or that this double red light system is so foreign to what they're used to that it doesen't "register," but rest assured NOBODY will see a red light before BOTH cars have left the line.

To do it any other way would be patently UNFAIR to the second car to leave.

Double red lights are, and will always be, a seldom seen phenomenon. This rule wouldn't come into effect very often at all, and it is likely that nobody would even be aware that it was in place, unless there were a double red light.


If it never gets implemented, the world will still revolve the same way, and lots of other inequites will continue to exist in our drag racing world. This just seems like one that is an easy fix, and needs to be done in the sake of fairness to every first car to leave the line in any kind of handicap racing.

Beyond that, have a nice day!!! And, I mean that!

Bill

Bill,maybe I'm crazy but I see no reason to make things anymore complicated than they already are.I've been the slower car for the past 10 years I've run stock except for about roughly 5-7 times(once in a final round) and I have absolutely no problem with the way it's done now.
I hoped someone with computer savvy would post a vote on what current racers think of this rule.
Have a nice too Bill,one oldie to another.

Ed

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

What do I think?

I think you somehow missed my response to my friend S.E. Buchanan which said, in part,
"S.E., neither driver will see a red light until after BOTH CARS have left the line.

A red light will mean "you lose," and the computer won't know who has "lost" until it compares both lights. It has no way to know whether the second car to leave will have had a worse red light than the first (and thereby become the loser) until he leaves the line, so there's NO WAY this system will affect the concentration of the faster car's driver. He will always assume the other car had a green light until he's left the line and sees a red, if there IS one.

He will see what he's always seen when the first car to leave had a good green light. NO additional distraction...."

That is the way I've been told the software works.

Nothing else would be acceptable; you absolutely CANNOT have a red light coming on and distracting a driver who hasn't left, yet! Nobody should EVER have to put up with that!!!

Thanks for your thoughts, Gary.

Bill

Yeah Bill, I noticed that after I posted my (your thoughts, in my) comments....I'm glad we agree on this one, and I hope that the Stock/Super Stock rep will present this thought to the next meeting they have because I think (like you), that it should be the same as a breakout run between the faster/slower vehicles.

[bill dedman]

Ed said: "Bill,maybe I'm crazy but I see no reason to make things anymore complicated than they already are."

I agree; they're plenty complicated, now.

Having said that I must ask, in what way would this complicate ANYTHING insofar as what the driving experience is?

What would you do differently? What would a AA car do differently???

Tell me; I may be missing something here...

If racing, using this system is going to be more complicated, I'd like to know what about it complicates ANYTHING??????

I'm serious. Explain the "complication" to me, please.

Thanks for hanging in there and reading all that crap I wrote.... but, if you think that racing under this system is going to be ONE IOTA more complicated than what we have now, then ~I~ don't understand it, myself.... 'cause I sure can't see it.

What it be?????????

Bill

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

Bill,maybe I'm crazy but I see no reason to make things anymore complicated than they already are.I've been the slower car for the past 10 years I've run stock except for about roughly 5-7 times(once in a final round) and I have absolutely no problem with the way it's done now.
I hoped someone with computer savvy would post a vote on what current racers think of this rule.
Have a nice too Bill,one oldie to another.

Ed

Another thing about the way the rule is now is that I think it makes me a better racer knowing that I have the extra pressure on me to go red.I'm not bragging but I don't go red very often and if I miss the light I up aroud 60s -70s.Not great but it still can steal a round here and there.Now dialing my car in that's an entirely different story.That's cost me a bunch of rounds,but,that's the combo I've chosen good or bad.

[bill dedman]

Gary,

Don't get your hopes up; this change would never, ever, net NHRA one red cent, and it would cost money for the changeover software, so I think it chances of its ever seeing the light of day are slim-to-none.

I've tried to get the racers on this board to support this idea for years, and I can't even get the guys with
S-L-O-W cars to agree that it's going to be beneficial, and they're the ones getting screwed the most with the current system.

Most of the racers who are against this idea, I am convinced, don't understand how it works.

I am sure that NHRA has no interest in making this change. It's such a simple idea; if they wanted it changed, it would have been changed years ago.

But, thanks for your interest and kind words.

Bill

[Jack McCarthy]

here's my .02 cents worth (and i should know)

i knew the rule when i chose my class / car (28 years ago)
i know i have a disadvantage on the redlight rule

i used to have advantage on class winner money ( until i was enhanced)
i now have another disadvantage on the line - two steps (some enhancement relief last year)

however... i still have advantages

i enjoy a good slick track, especially when paired with a-b-c radial car
i still spend less than an a--b-c car (but still way too much... enhance enhance enhance)
i never hit the wheelie bars and spin
i put up wiuth less assholes...the guys who race in o- w are a much nicer breed

captain
i agree with billy... lose the reaction times & incrementals

[Tony Janes]

I agree with Ed and Jack on the red light situation. It has been that way since I have been racing on the tree and I can live with it.

[Casey Miles]

Our sport has evolved, they have now Cross Talk installed into the most tracks, so why not No Red until both leave. This way the playing field evens out alot more then you think. Why do you think that all the better bracket racers want the faster cars, so that the slower car makes the first mistake. It's always easier being the faster car, you can judge the finish line easier passing someone rather then being passed. If you take out the RED on the first car then it takes out some of the advantage of the faster car. As a bracket racer and Stock racer, I would welcome the NO RED.
Just my view on the subject. Another part of this is to take out reaction times in time runs, and in eliminations just put in the difference of the reaction times so that they can be figured out by the contestants.
Casey Miles
248H

[bill dedman]

Tony Janes said, "I can live with it."

Tony, everybody's been "living with it" (except the A cars, and now they have the same problem when running a AA car, finally), for 46 years...

But we no longer would have to "live with it" if they'd fix it, which they now can do at very little expense, and in a way that affects nobody's driving style in ANY WAY.

Like I said, I can't see any logical reason not to do it.

RE: " I can live with it." is very considerate of you, but what have you done to deserve second-class status in this matter? Nothing I can see would make "living with it" a fair treatment for you. You deserve the same treatment that the guy in the other lane gets, regardless of class or dial-in.

Right now, you don't always get it.

THAT's what I'd like to see fixed.

Bill