Aubrey's 62 409 goes 11.067 in C/S - Page 4

Geerhead55 · 05-29-2009, 11:40 PM

Aubrey,,,,sell off one of your other "hotrods" and slap a good unit like a Moser 12 bolt under there with the spool/axle/ gear ratio package you want.You can even get them with disc brakes. I had one question I forgot to ask you last weekend,,,are you running a 2 piece driveshaft? I think those cars came that way did'nt they? I'm curious how they make them live under a heavy car with a lot of power and a manual transmission,, and if you have to beef up the carrier bearing.
Good luck,,,I hope to see you again out there somewhere,,,,,,,,Danny Durham

Grant Eldridge · 05-30-2009, 12:56 AM

Congratulations, Aubrey, great meeting you at Mission and seeing your car run! I raced 409 Chevys in the '60's when we were lucky to get into the 12's with the track prep and tires of the day. We broke dozens of those old rear ends, as well as the axles, driveshaft centre bearing supports, u-joints, clutch linkages and of course the old Muncie transmissions. With todays tires and traction I can't imagine attempting to use that rear end. We even broke the pinion right out of the carrier on one pass, hanging off the end of the driveshaft with half the casting, the rest still bolted into the car! The chevs were bad for not upgrading the rest of the driveline to handle the bigger motors, this was essentially the same rear end found in six cylinder cars, They bolt right into the early 4 cylinder Novas even! We did improve the situation by heat treating gear sets to soften them, as I recall from 40 years ago they were about Rockwell 62-64 and we drew them down to about 52-54 from ancient memory. That made them wear out faster, but less likely to break. We'd also set the gear pattern on the drive side well towards the inside of the tooth and use as close to zero lash as we dared. The case and carrier deflect substantially and the pattern shifts out on the tooth, so if you start centered you'll move out and break the teeth off on the outside of the ring gear. I recall guys using steel straps machined to fit on the main caps to strengthen them and longer bolts. I even seem to recall some guys brazing up the end of a bolt and threading it in through the side of the case so it would contact the back of the ring gear somehow to help stop the case from spreading, not sure of exactly how this was positioned or if it was effective. The point is exactly as Tony Janes said, it's junk and a waste of your time and money to attempt to keep it in one piece. Even if it were an automatic, it would be highly doubtful that it could be reliable. As others have posted, the 12 bolt should be no problem to rework with suitable mounts, etc and you'll be saving yourself endless problems with the old 10 bolt. Anyway, best of luck! It's a cool ride!
Grant Eldridge
E/SA 6650

Alan Nyhus · 05-30-2009, 06:48 AM

Very cool. I bought/sold/traded a lot of 409 cars and parts some years back...love those W motors and the cars.

The rear ends in the 58-64 full size cars aren't as wide as the body style would lead you to think they are....a '67-69 Camaro/Nova or '64-67 Chevelle rear end are perfect replacements in drum-to-drum dimension. I did a 12 bolt swap into a '62 Biscayne some years ago that worked out really slick....used a Camaro 12 bolt and welded the brackets from the original '62 read end onto it. Using the back surface of the 12 bolt (where the cover bolts on) and the the front surface of the '62 rear end (where the 3rd member bolts in) as reference points, it was easy to duplicate the correct geometry of the lower control arms and the upper control arm. The control arms were reinforced and I did some old school stuff on the control arm bushings....sheetrock screws screwed into the bushings (3 per side) to stiffen them up.

For brakes, we used a setup from '65-'70 big car (Impala) to replace the 9" brakes from the Camaro. The housing ends/bearings on the '65-up cars are bigger than the Camaro/Nova/Chevelle rears and the bolt spacing of the backing plates to the flange is also wider. I welded up the backing plate mounting holes, redrilled them to the correct location and made up a small steel spacer ring to take up the clearance between the '65-up backing plate and bearing housing o.d. of the Camaro rear. Worked slick. A disc setup would be the way to do it today, of course.

The two-piece driveshaft was replaced with a one piece unit. The notch where the rear portion of the original 'shaft comes out of the frame tunnel was opened up foward to allow for the greater angle....since the driveshafts pivot point was now at the front u-joint instead of at the carrier bearning in the middle of the tunnel.

Congrats Aubrey on a 'way cool stocker. -Al

Aubrey N Bruneau · 05-30-2009, 12:13 PM

Thank YOU, Grant, Alan...

It's just that easy to give up the old thing !

Here's what I've done:
webbed housing
bearing caps
spool
30 spline
larger outer bearing

treessavoy · 05-30-2009, 12:48 PM

Aubrey,

Back in the day I seem to remember the chevy guy's putting the Olds or Pontiac rear ends in their cars.....don't know if this is a viable option anymore, I'm sure no one makes the gears and parts.

My tri-power '58 Pontiac has one beefy rearend in it!

Jim

bill dedman · 05-30-2009, 01:00 PM

Jim,

I know the '57-up Olds/Pontiac rear ends were really strong units. I just wonder what the diameter is of the ring gear.

Anybody remember that dimension?

Just curious....
Bill

treessavoy · 05-30-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Jim,

I know the '57-up Olds/Pontiac rear ends were really strong units. I just wonder what the diameter is of the ring gear.

Anybody remember that dimension?

Just curious....
Bill

Bill,

I don't remember either but those rear ends went into a lot of gassers at the time. There are probably gear sets floating around at swap meets.

Jim

Alan Roehrich · 05-30-2009, 01:36 PM

Until recently, Strange, and even Mark Williams had stuff for the Olds/Pontiac rear end. However, if you are going to the trouble to change, change to the 12 bolt Chevy. I want to see that car go fast and go rounds. You've suffered enough, for a long time, to make it work, just get a 12 bolt in it and enjoy the car. You've earned it.

Greg Reimer 7376 · 05-30-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Until recently, Strange, and even Mark Williams had stuff for the Olds/Pontiac rear end. However, if you are going to the trouble to change, change to the 12 bolt Chevy. I want to see that car go fast and go rounds. You've suffered enough, for a long time, to make it work, just get a 12 bolt in it and enjoy the car. You've earned it.

Dittos and mega dittos.

Ken Haase · 05-30-2009, 06:20 PM

Pretty sure the 'late' Olds/Pontiac's are 9 3/8ths. Not too many ratio's to choose from.

Sure wish you were going to be at Spokane, Aubrey. I'd really like to see your '62 in person. Any chance of that?

05-29-2009, 11:40 PM	#31
Geerhead55 VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Tacoma, Washington Posts: 1,632 Likes: 0 Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Aubrey's 62 409 goes 11.067 in C/S Aubrey,,,,sell off one of your other "hotrods" and slap a good unit like a Moser 12 bolt under there with the spool/axle/ gear ratio package you want.You can even get them with disc brakes. I had one question I forgot to ask you last weekend,,,are you running a 2 piece driveshaft? I think those cars came that way did'nt they? I'm curious how they make them live under a heavy car with a lot of power and a manual transmission,, and if you have to beef up the carrier bearing. Good luck,,,I hope to see you again out there somewhere,,,,,,,,Danny Durham

05-30-2009, 12:56 AM	#32
Grant Eldridge Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 124 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Aubrey's 62 409 goes 11.067 in C/S Congratulations, Aubrey, great meeting you at Mission and seeing your car run! I raced 409 Chevys in the '60's when we were lucky to get into the 12's with the track prep and tires of the day. We broke dozens of those old rear ends, as well as the axles, driveshaft centre bearing supports, u-joints, clutch linkages and of course the old Muncie transmissions. With todays tires and traction I can't imagine attempting to use that rear end. We even broke the pinion right out of the carrier on one pass, hanging off the end of the driveshaft with half the casting, the rest still bolted into the car! The chevs were bad for not upgrading the rest of the driveline to handle the bigger motors, this was essentially the same rear end found in six cylinder cars, They bolt right into the early 4 cylinder Novas even! We did improve the situation by heat treating gear sets to soften them, as I recall from 40 years ago they were about Rockwell 62-64 and we drew them down to about 52-54 from ancient memory. That made them wear out faster, but less likely to break. We'd also set the gear pattern on the drive side well towards the inside of the tooth and use as close to zero lash as we dared. The case and carrier deflect substantially and the pattern shifts out on the tooth, so if you start centered you'll move out and break the teeth off on the outside of the ring gear. I recall guys using steel straps machined to fit on the main caps to strengthen them and longer bolts. I even seem to recall some guys brazing up the end of a bolt and threading it in through the side of the case so it would contact the back of the ring gear somehow to help stop the case from spreading, not sure of exactly how this was positioned or if it was effective. The point is exactly as Tony Janes said, it's junk and a waste of your time and money to attempt to keep it in one piece. Even if it were an automatic, it would be highly doubtful that it could be reliable. As others have posted, the 12 bolt should be no problem to rework with suitable mounts, etc and you'll be saving yourself endless problems with the old 10 bolt. Anyway, best of luck! It's a cool ride! Grant Eldridge E/SA 6650

05-30-2009, 06:48 AM	#33
Alan Nyhus VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Lower Dakota territory Posts: 1,180 Likes: 1,074 Liked 799 Times in 236 Posts	Re: Aubrey's 62 409 goes 11.067 in C/S Very cool. I bought/sold/traded a lot of 409 cars and parts some years back...love those W motors and the cars. The rear ends in the 58-64 full size cars aren't as wide as the body style would lead you to think they are....a '67-69 Camaro/Nova or '64-67 Chevelle rear end are perfect replacements in drum-to-drum dimension. I did a 12 bolt swap into a '62 Biscayne some years ago that worked out really slick....used a Camaro 12 bolt and welded the brackets from the original '62 read end onto it. Using the back surface of the 12 bolt (where the cover bolts on) and the the front surface of the '62 rear end (where the 3rd member bolts in) as reference points, it was easy to duplicate the correct geometry of the lower control arms and the upper control arm. The control arms were reinforced and I did some old school stuff on the control arm bushings....sheetrock screws screwed into the bushings (3 per side) to stiffen them up. For brakes, we used a setup from '65-'70 big car (Impala) to replace the 9" brakes from the Camaro. The housing ends/bearings on the '65-up cars are bigger than the Camaro/Nova/Chevelle rears and the bolt spacing of the backing plates to the flange is also wider. I welded up the backing plate mounting holes, redrilled them to the correct location and made up a small steel spacer ring to take up the clearance between the '65-up backing plate and bearing housing o.d. of the Camaro rear. Worked slick. A disc setup would be the way to do it today, of course. The two-piece driveshaft was replaced with a one piece unit. The notch where the rear portion of the original 'shaft comes out of the frame tunnel was opened up foward to allow for the greater angle....since the driveshafts pivot point was now at the front u-joint instead of at the carrier bearning in the middle of the tunnel. Congrats Aubrey on a 'way cool stocker. -Al

05-30-2009, 12:13 PM	#34
Aubrey N Bruneau Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: South Eastern Alberta, Canada Posts: 311 Likes: 6 Liked 7 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Aubrey's 62 409 goes 11.067 in C/S Thank YOU, Grant, Alan... It's just that easy to give up the old thing ! Here's what I've done: webbed housing bearing caps spool 30 spline larger outer bearing Attached Thumbnails __________________ Aubrey N Bruneau 6409 C/S 62 BelAir sport coupe, 409 HP 409

05-30-2009, 12:48 PM	#35
treessavoy VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Dunnellon,FL Posts: 1,103 Likes: 0 Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Aubrey's 62 409 goes 11.067 in C/S Aubrey, Back in the day I seem to remember the chevy guy's putting the Olds or Pontiac rear ends in their cars.....don't know if this is a viable option anymore, I'm sure no one makes the gears and parts. My tri-power '58 Pontiac has one beefy rearend in it! Jim

05-30-2009, 01:00 PM	#36
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Aubrey's 62 409 goes 11.067 in C/S Jim, I know the '57-up Olds/Pontiac rear ends were really strong units. I just wonder what the diameter is of the ring gear. Anybody remember that dimension? Just curious.... Bill __________________ Bill

05-30-2009, 01:36 PM	#38
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,104 Likes: 1,560 Liked 1,784 Times in 407 Posts	Re: Aubrey's 62 409 goes 11.067 in C/S Until recently, Strange, and even Mark Williams had stuff for the Olds/Pontiac rear end. However, if you are going to the trouble to change, change to the 12 bolt Chevy. I want to see that car go fast and go rounds. You've suffered enough, for a long time, to make it work, just get a 12 bolt in it and enjoy the car. You've earned it. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

05-30-2009, 06:20 PM	#40
Ken Haase Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 233 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Aubrey's 62 409 goes 11.067 in C/S Pretty sure the 'late' Olds/Pontiac's are 9 3/8ths. Not too many ratio's to choose from. Sure wish you were going to be at Spokane, Aubrey. I'd really like to see your '62 in person. Any chance of that?