Think about this.........

[Mike Carr]

Against my better judgement...

There is no logical or legitamate reason the leave the rule as is. The worst redlight rule is the fairest way to do it, for all handicap-tree racers. The current system favors the faster car in a bracket racing situation. I, and just about anyone else, would agree with that.

Now, with that said, Bill, why don't you e-mail/call/write/fax/postcard/Facebook/Myspace/smoke signal/morse code/pigeon carrier/whatever you have to do, send it to NHRA/IHRA and air your grievance with them? Instead of taking up valuable space on here to argue and complain about a system that affects REAL Class Racers? Seriously. We get it. We got it a long time ago. Again, based on most racers post(s) on here, it seems very few care at all, or at least as strongly as you, about this issue. Take it up with someone that can actually change the way things work, instead of constantly yammering about it on here. I still say, as would the majority of Class Racers, that there are bigger problems that the xHRA's need to address and fix first for Class Racing before the Christmas Tree issue.

[Adger Smith]

I like the Worst red light rule. I agree it is fair. But just sit back and think when and where the first red light rule came from. Why would a new(back then) organization like NHRA come up with such a rule. The problems with the electronics... no I don't think so. They developed electronics that tell you which car got to the finish line first... Could it go back and be a carry over from the days of flagging... Bill, You and I are old enough to remember those days. Yes, it could be just a carry over. How could a flagger determine which was the worst red light? Now with that said lets throw in the big MAYBE....MAYBE there was another issue that gives us the first red light rule. Could it be for the best Show for the spectators? How you say? Because a new organization was wanting to grow and spectators wanted to watch faster cars. The slow car red lighting first was/is a clear cut advantage for those who build a fast car. Yesterday and today and it promotes the building of faster cars. So NHRA gets faster cars built, grows and gives the spectators a faster show. I would say since we have had it like this for so long it is probably one of those "Things" that management thinks should be left alone. I can tell you Bill isn't the first guy to wear this issue out.
My .02 for free...
Merry Christmas

[bill dedman]

Thanks. Adger. I was told that it (the first redlight rule) came about as a result of no software existing at the time that could handle the task of comparing reaction times, and not turning on either red light until the worse infraction was decided. I can believe that... it WAS 46 years ago, after all... LOL!

Insofar as NHRA simply leaving it alone, as an advantage for the faster cars all these years, that's very possible, but, I think unlikely because

1. a double red light doesn't happen very often, and,

2. it can just as easily happen in a race between an M Stocker and a V stocker as it can an A car and an H.... There's not that much opportunity for the higher class cars to benefit, but that's just my opinion. Been wrong before... for sure.

My personal opinion is that NHRA is just L-A-Z-Y, eaten up with apathy, and will never be proactive in getting rid of something like this if they can get around it. But, that's just my 2-cents, too.

I appreciate your input, Adger.... I do.

I should give it a good letting alone. My only reason for posting it was to try and make as many people as possible, aware of how it all works; There are people who, like myself, just never paid that much attention... If they knew, they might talk amongst themselves and develop a consensus.... one way or another.

It could be argued that such a consensus already exists, in that there's no viable protest group lobbying NHRA right now, on this issue, but the problem with that view is that something like this has inertia on the side of "It's always been this way," and a lot of people don't care enough to think beyond that viewpoint. That becomes an "immoveable object" when new concepts and arguments for change go ignored by that kind of complacency...

I am convinced that NHRA will never change to a worse red light rule, unless they are coerced into it.

I don't see that happening.

Have a great Christmas and a very happy New Year, Adger!!!

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Adger Smith

I like the Worst red light rule. I agree it is fair. I can tell you Bill isn't the first guy to wear this issue out.
My .02 for free...
Merry Christmas

The late Steve Taylor comes to mind. In case the name dosent ring a bell he ran stock back in the 70's with a 396/375 HP Chevelle. He did well and almost won a couple of IHRA National events back in the day by getting down to the semi's. His wife also ran her own car in stock. As time went on and it became more expensive he went ( THE HORROR OF IT) bracket racing. He became a "Killer" and won several high dollar electronics races running against dragsters and lite wt. door cars loaded with every electronic devise invented while FOOT braking a cavalier FWD slug. The fast guys got pissed and they had the min. ET changed to eliminate him and his wife in twin Cavaliers from competing and "stealing their Glory". Kind of sounds like what stock and S/S is turning into dosent it !

[Michael Beard]

Rules, by nature, are arbitrary.

[Bobby Zlatkin]

Bill Dedman, I also 'get' it and I agree with you completely. I see no logical reason why "worst" shouldn't get the red light.

[Ed Wright]

Yes, but it ain't gonna change because a few old men keep cryng about it on an internet message board. Also, some get tired of the endless long posts complaining about it.

Only a person with a lower class car that doesn't have to give a lot of spots think the faster car has all the advantages, and thinks the "dirty tree" / "clean tree" talk is B.S.
I usually leave first, but with the rule like it is I still prefer leaving first. No car leaving in the other lane or lights coming down on the other side of the tree to distract me. I'm not the only one that will tell you that.

I know, guys say I need to "FOCUS!", but also "JUST DON'T RED LIGHT!"

Just because the faster car went ahead and left instead of sitting on the converter or 2 step does not mean they would have been red if the slower car weren't red. If I spot a car and it goes red, I just say "I'm gone" and leave. I don't spot many by a lot, so won't be a half second red. I know several others in faster cars that do the same thing. People can whine all they want, but the rule is what it is.

May as well give it a rest.

[Adger Smith]

Wow, Bill... 46 years ago I raced at Hope Ar airport and it was off Flags and distance Spots. Add to the list of tracks that ran the same way:
The old Shreveport track and the Airport at Haynesville La. The first time I went to the Hallsville Tx track, can't remember the year but had to be 68 or earlier, they had distance spots with an old stop light hanging down track between the Strips of pavement. In late1969 when I went to the Paris Tx track they had a Pro Tree handicap start system. I think it was a 3 light. It was the same tree system that I raced on and won an IHRA National Event at the old Dallas International track in 1971. The first Full trees I ever ran on were at Carlisle Ar. and I-20 Tyler Tx sometime in the early 70's. I started racing in a friends fast Stock class 1962 Impala at Hope. I raced in "Stock" class until I moved my 69 Camaro up to SS in 1973. I built a Modified 1966 Vette in 1974. The first bracket race I raced in was when my 69 Camaro Stocker broke a rear end at Paris in early 71.
Jerry Bob Stevens allowed me to use my "Stock" entry in brackets and I ran the tow car, 68 Dodge Dart w/383 auto. WOW, Sorry your 46 year ago comment swept up all those thoughts from the cobwebs and dust of my mind!!! :~) I guess things have changed, yet stayed the same; my love for the sport of racing.
Merry Christmas, to All

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

There is no logical or legitimate reason the leave the rule as is. The worst redlight rule is the fairest way to do it, for all handicap-tree racers. The current system favors the faster car in a bracket racing situation. I, and just about anyone else, would agree with that.

Now, with that said, Bill, why don't you email/call/write/fax/postcard/Facebook/Myspace/smoke signal/morse code/pigeon carrier/whatever you have to do, send it to NHRA/IHRA and air your grievance with them? Instead of taking up valuable space on here to argue and complain about a system that affects REAL Class Racers? Seriously. We get it. We got it a long time ago. Again, based on most racers post(s) on here, it seems very few care at all, or at least as strongly as you, about this issue. Take it up with someone that can actually change the way things work, instead of constantly yammering about it on here. I still say, as would the majority of Class Racers, that there are bigger problems that the xHRA's need to address and fix first for Class Racing before the Christmas Tree issue.

Mike, I'm glad you "get it." If you, and guys like you truly "get it," why don't you do anything about it? It's a 46 year-old problem that affects half the racers in any round of handicap racing.
I guarantee you if NHRA came out with new rule than said all red cars now have to carry 50 additional pounds of ballast, there would be moaning, groaning, gnashing of teeth and whining 'til NHRA did something about it.

Why not this???

"they just don't care..."

You act like Class racers are the only ones affected by this.

I KNOW you know a LOT about Bracket racing. If I line up against your Bracket car, and you have the slower car, does it not bother you that your red light just took me out of red light jeopardy, and deposited me in the winners' circle, even though you only bulbed..002 and I left .023 early??

I think that bracket racers everywhere, are affected equally, by the first red light rule.

Insofar as "valuable space" on this forum, goes, I can't think of a better use of it than trying to "right" an ongoing, 46-year old, injustice to the slower car. There are people who post jokes, private conversations, unfounded rumors, political opinions and just about everything you can think of, on on this forum... I appreciate the opportunity to have it at my disposal, but when the subject matter is something as pertinent and serious as NHRA rules, I can't see that I am doing anything wrong. This forum is for people who want to discuss racing, and the rules are part and parcel of that.

If someone doesn't want to read it, they should do what I do when I find a subject boring, impertinent, or of no value; go to the next forum... there are lots of excellent subjects here to read; they don't have to read my Don Quixote prattle... (Thank you, Ed.)

Thanks again for your comments, Mike. Have a happy Holiday!!!