Once again a bogus combination

[Floyd Gomez]

No matter how much you beat a dead horse, in the morning he is still dead. The 98 Firebird should not have been allowed with the LT-1. Correct ( and I am a GM fan) The Cj's and DP's are grossly underated and build up is questionable at best. Correct. Will this change the fact that all of the above mentioned cars are acceptable by NHRA in stock? Nope! Racers and engine builders have found many secrets for many years to make their combo faster, have combo's in cars that they never came with and have guarded those secrets like it was an issue of national security. Does it suck that somebody is faster? Sure but somebody will always be faster. As far as a CJ or DP owner taking responsibility to own up to problems with the car he just paid 100K to build, that would sound just as crazy if you took 100K out of your pocket and threw it out of the window going 70mph on the interstate. There is no way that a person would go to NHRA and say " Hey I love my new car but it really isn't legal for competition so I think you should throw it out". The fact is the people that could afford the new cars did. Those of us that couldn't didn't. Just like when people could afford the new FI cars. Just my .02 worth

[Mark Callanan]

Originally Posted by Floyd Gomez

No matter how much you beat a dead horse, in the morning he is still dead. The 98 Firebird should not have been allowed with the LT-1. Correct ( and I am a GM fan) The Cj's and DP's are grossly underated and build up is questionable at best. Correct. Will this change the fact that all of the above mentioned cars are acceptable by NHRA in stock? Nope! Racers and engine builders have found many secrets for many years to make their combo faster, have combo's in cars that they never came with and have guarded those secrets like it was an issue of national security. Does it suck that somebody is faster? Sure but somebody will always be faster. As far as a CJ or DP owner taking responsibility to own up to problems with the car he just paid 100K to build, that would sound just as crazy if you took 100K out of your pocket and threw it out of the window going 70mph on the interstate. There is no way that a person would go to NHRA and say " Hey I love my new car but it really isn't legal for competition so I think you should throw it out". The fact is the people that could afford the new cars did. Those of us that couldn't didn't. Just like when people could afford the new FI cars. Just my .02 worth

Maybe the point is the car never should of been built knowing the rules had to be bent to get it in
And your right I am sure it costs 75-100k to build a paper car like that
Must be nice to have money and influence to get deals like this done...

[Jeff Teuton]

Mark, you really aren't going to like it when Jerry Hatch from you home state comes out with his DP. Some of your comments are a little close, but I am a true car salesman, and have been for 42 years and the 325 people I employ like me being a true car salesman. You really don't know me very well, but that's ok. I'm a big boy and can take the heat. I have been squabbling with people over combo's for years, and plan on doing some more. And you might check around. Over the many years I have probably tried to help the Sportsman and especially Stock and Super Stock as much as anyone. If you feel your can cannot compete, the do as I did, get another combo. Maybe you can check with Bob Lang, your division directory as to my involvement with the SRAC. If you don't like it, get me unelected. That's the American way. It's sorta thankless anyway. As to the 'perversion' of the rules, I didn't do anything at all. Mopar asked and got approval from NHRA to make 100 special Drag Pak cars, with 3 engine combos that are outlined in the guide and approved before the first one was built. I own and race #16. As it turns out, Mopar will build an additional 50 DP cars. We also got 3 Hemi Cudas, which I guess they got 'perverted' in l968, which is the year I became a true car salesman.

[Mark Callanan]

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton

Mark, you really aren't going to like it when Jerry Hatch from you home state comes out with his DP. Some of your comments are a little close, but I am a true car salesman, and have been for 42 years and the 325 people I employ like me being a true car salesman. You really don't know me very well, but that's ok. I'm a big boy and can take the heat. I have been squabbling with people over combo's for years, and plan on doing some more. And you might check around. Over the many years I have probably tried to help the Sportsman and especially Stock and Super Stock as much as anyone. If you feel your can cannot compete, the do as I did, get another combo. Maybe you can check with Bob Lang, your division directory as to my involvement with the SRAC. If you don't like it, get me unelected. That's the American way. It's sorta thankless anyway. As to the 'perversion' of the rules, I didn't do anything at all. Mopar asked and got approval from NHRA to make 100 special Drag Pak cars, with 3 engine combos that are outlined in the guide and approved before the first one was built. I own and race #16. As it turns out, Mopar will build an additional 50 DP cars. We also got 3 Hemi Cudas, which I guess they got 'perverted' in l968, which is the year I became a true car salesman.

Well one thing is for sure if Scott Gove builds it it will be fast

[Stewart Way]

Yes, I'm a Mopar guy. Yes, I think the DP's are underated. Yes, I'm building a 5.7 for SS/GT but I am slower than the AHFS so by the time I'm running the HP may be in line.
That said, I have a couple questions.
Bruce, you stated that this debate will be going on next year if the racers don't come to a "reasonable compromise" on this issue. What would that be? Reasonalbe compromise is like affordabe healthcare. Very different meanings to different folks. I don't think anyone has stated that the DPs and CJs are factored correctly, but beating each other up over it solves nothing. Any changes will come thru NHRA, not racer compromise, and I think you are addressing that..
Mark, what rules were bent to get these cars in the class guide. Someone tried to make the point earlier that the rule of 50 was put in recently to allow these cars but that was written into the rulebook in the 90's.
A good debate is an enjoyable mental exercise but when it sinks to character assassination, comments based on emotion rather than fact and name calling (another thread on this topic) in serve little purpose other than a place to vent frustration and emotion. For that I use a speed bag.
Lets play nice. It's nobodys fault on this forum that these cars were built by the OEMs and in the case of the DPs I think most of them were purchased before the specs even hit the class guide in 3/09.

[Bob Pagano]

Is the horse dead yet ? We all know its not right but the character assassination has to stop,bad mouthing another racer just is not right based on what car or class he runs. Stewart you are right on.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Stewart Way

Yes, I'm a Mopar guy. Yes, I think the DP's are underated. Yes, I'm building a 5.7 for SS/GT but I am slower than the AHFS so by the time I'm running the HP may be in line.
That said, I have a couple questions.
Bruce, you stated that this debate will be going on next year if the racers don't come to a "reasonable compromise" on this issue. What would that be? Reasonalbe compromise is like affordabe healthcare. Very different meanings to different folks. I don't think anyone has stated that the DPs and CJs are factored correctly, but beating each other up over it solves nothing. Any changes will come thru NHRA, not racer compromise, and I think you are addressing that..
Mark, what rules were bent to get these cars in the class guide. Someone tried to make the point earlier that the rule of 50 was put in recently to allow these cars but that was written into the rulebook in the 90's.
A good debate is an enjoyable mental exercise but when it sinks to character assassination, comments based on emotion rather than fact and name calling (another thread on this topic) in serve little purpose other than a place to vent frustration and emotion. For that I use a speed bag.
Lets play nice. It's nobodys fault on this forum that these cars were built by the OEMs and in the case of the DPs I think most of them were purchased before the specs even hit the class guide in 3/09.

Good posting Stewart.
We have fourteen pages of posts with finger pointing and blaming racers, and probably the topic will continue on.
Let's be real and point the fingers in the right direction: NHRA

Bruce, the debate will continue as long as people keep adding coal to the fire. On the same token, I do not understand your statement of "reasonable compromise" either.
Are you implying that "reasonable compromise" would entail racers with CJ's and DP's parking their cars until NHRA re-factors the engines?

I know that many of the people that have complained, if they had the funds, they would also join the fray and would purchase a CJ or DP. And if GM offered an equivalent, many of them would be buying one too and probably we would not be having these postings.

Also, I feel that attacks on people like Jeff Teuton are out of line. Jeff has been one of the biggest supporters of the sport in many ways.

It is tiring to read the same rhetoric again and again; let's aim the energy to the real culprit of the problem: NHRA

[Jack McCarthy]

jeff... i know your a nice guy but it is ok to tell them to kiss your *****...then go have a beer, hell have two, one for me...

no one gave a **** when the caddy was discovered in the nhra class guide book cause i was the only one getting his ***** kicked but now when the guys who have cars in the "early" alphabet classes get the short end of the class guide this post gets written like it should be a federal crime...

anyway have a beer , ill have one here, and good luck with your new car... should'a painted orange like the super bee

your kentucky buddy
captain jack

[Bruce Noland]

Guys,
A reasonable compromise would be to simply put the crate motor cars in their own classes within Stock and Super Stock. Nobody has ever given a reason why this wouldn't work for everybody. Sure the guys with the new cars want to think of them as new Stock Eliminator cars and they want to take every advantage that is made available to them. But we aren't dicussing advantage. An avantage is when you need a 2 pound hammer and walk over to the tool drawer and whip out a 3 pound hammer. This is a 28 pound sledge hammer that we are discussing. Nobody disagreed with my thoughts about privileged rules in other sports. SO, yes we could come to a decent compromise. And thanks to the Internet this debate will continue to roar well into the future.

An OEM executive was quoted during the Las Vegas race - "we were not going to come back to drag racing unless we enjoyed certain advantages." Well they got their advantages. Let's see how it works out for them.

One more thing. What makes you guys think we have no rights? Is it written down some where that we don't have rights?

Thanks to Kenny for allowing me and others to post our thoughts on this issue. I know first hand that this is a difficult experience and I appreciate his tolerance. We always come out of these debates with more knowlege and understanding of the issues that effect our sport. The weary old horse may be on life support but he ain't dead.

[Floyd Gomez]

Originally Posted by mark callanan

Maybe the point is the car never should of been built knowing the rules had to be bent to get it in
And your right I am sure it costs 75-100k to build a paper car like that
Must be nice to have money and influence to get deals like this done...

Mark the plain fact is that the car WAS allowed by NHRA and that decision was between them and Mopar. Just like the CJ was between them and Ford and the FI Gm were between them and NHRA. I am a racer on a budget. I know I will never be as fast as the new cars but I will have fun no matter what car I line up next to. As far as bashing someone because they have money that is just wrong. I am sure all of these guys have worked just as hard or maybe harder than most to get where they are today. You cannot fault a person for doing well in their lives. They chose a career that suited them as I am sure you chose a career that suited you. I think Jeff has done a great job at making his business what it is today and he should be proud to be a CAR SALESMAN.