Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!

[GarysZ24]

First of all, Leroy I'm surprised that you'd be taking the views of Hawk Bros & Jeff who opposed my mindset, everyone who races a non-ground effects car should care. I rewatched those races yesterday, and the extension of Dennis's front end was only half the distance forward of the most forward extension of his front end, compared to Mike's (in Super Gas). Furthermore, I don't know what race Hawk Bro's was watching, but if the race would've been tire to tire, then Dennis's tire was clearly ahead of Mike's. As for the Super Stock final, how could you (Jeff and Hawk Bro's, not see that Brad's front end of his Cavalier touched the end of the stripe as Justin's frontal area was just beyond the sensor)??? Brad may have accepted the outcome (and Dennis said "OUCH"!), but camera's don't lie, and both his frontal nose and his tires crossed the finish line ahead of Justins car (unfortunately for Brad, his front end wasn't as low as Justin's which is the only reason he didn't trip the lights first)!!! Justin nose dove his front end right at the stripe to make his lowest area of the front end appear to be slightly lower than the lowest edge of his wheel, while Brads lowest edge of his front end was nearly equal to the center point of his front wheel...the laws of physics, science, and math played out here crystal clearly, and I'm no wiz at any of them, but I sure know enough to have seen the light of day in both of those races!!! I wasn't going to get technical with Jeff and Hawk Bro's, but now that you chimed in with them Leroy, I felt I needed to...

Jeff, you commented about my car having ground effects that could trip the finish line, but even under the hardest braking I could possibly do, my front end wouldn't dive below the lowest part of the wheel like Justins car did...by the way Jeff, now that M/T has discontinued making the 20" slicks I've been running for the last 15yrs, my front end will raise 2" at a minimum due to having to now run taller tires to race anything that will bite the track good, so there goes my so-called ground effects advantage??? Even more so, it was visually obvious the disparity between the vehicles (mostly between Mike's Super Gasser & Dennis's, but clear enough where Brad & Justins cars were concerned)...just studying the front ends of the cars as they were going up hill after the race clearly showed how much lower the front end was on both Justin's and Mike's cars as opposed to Brad's and Dennis's...besides Brad's frontal area was more than .005 ahead of Justin's frontal area (given how fast thousandts of a second spin). On the other hand, the halfway point of Justins car was close enough to the lower part of the front tire (of Brad's car), that tripped the finish line...thus making a .005 difference logically possible. Jeff, you brought up some good points, but so did I, and the shots at the finish line proved all of mine!!!

The visual facts are obvious, if the sensors would've been the same height as the staging beams were, then Dennis and Brad would've won their finals because their tires were clearly ahead of Mike's and Justin's. Heck Mike even admitted that the only reason he crossed the line first was because of his front end, so what can you guys say about that??? Given the vast diversity in racing vehicles, only exact types of such would be similar up front, but if tires determine the start & end of a race, then all we'd have to do is look at the footage of the race to show who should've won the respective races. Ground effects cars should trip the finish line the same as non-ground effects cars/trucks...with the tire! What's fair is fair, and that wasn't fair!!!

Ohh, and by the way Leroy, unless I'm mistaken the last time I checked (per someone else who commented in this thread), stripe takers aren't legal in Stock or Super Stock, so I'm glad you told Junior that your car was a bracket car. One more thing, Justin's brother even spoke about how he lost a race the same way...as the saying goes "two wrongs don't make a right", and I don't care how long ground effects cars have been involved in racing (mine included), tires start a race, tires (AND ONLY) tires should finish it! hanks Junior, and all who saw the reality of those races, and congratulations to Justin & Mike for being able to work it to get the victories!

As for you Brad & Dennis (plus Dan Fletcher), your days will come again, and your just due's will become all three of you!!!

I'm done with this (until it happens again & I see it), but it was great debating you Leroy, Jeff, and Hawk Bro's racing...

[Jeff Stout]

Just for the sake of discussion if the beams were 3 inches high at the finish line could you dip a front end of one of these cars that low and steal a win? I believe so. If a rule was made that a tire only stops the timers at the finish line I have to ask how do we patrol that? I dont see how. I totally hear what you are saying Gary but I dont see how it can be patrolled and why it should be. Can you tell with your car sitting still how high is the bottom of your ground effects and from the front of your tire 6 inches up from ground how far forward is your ground effects. Also what MPH do you cross the finish line at?

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Jeff Stout

Just for the sake of discussion if the beams were 3 inches high at the finish line could you dip a front end of one of these cars that low and steal a win? I believe so. If a rule was made that a tire only stops the timers at the finish line I have to ask how do we patrol that? I dont see how. I totally hear what you are saying Gary but I dont see how it can be patrolled and why it should be. Can you tell with your car sitting still how high is the bottom of your ground effects and from the front of your tire 6 inches up from ground how far forward is your ground effects. Also what MPH do you cross the finish line at?

I cross the finish line between 83 & 88mph (for now until I earn the funds to freshen up my 14yr old engine work, and get a higher duration cam into it than my currently modest .218 cam), depending on the altitude of the track I'm racing at.

As for the tire stopping thing, just lower the sensor height at the finish line to match the height of the staging beam (at the start), and that would likely solve that...or raise the height of the sensor at the finish line beam to stop the timers once the most frontal part of a vehicle would cross it (much like a track& field race). This may not help a race like Dennis's & Mike's in Super Gas (since Mike's front end was twice as far forward of his tire as opposed to Dennis's), but it sure would've changed the Super Stock result. In the Super Gas final it's clear to me that instead of clocking a run in 1320ft, Mike's lower extended frontal area allowed him to race to 1319' and nearly 6"...making for his advantage over Dennis's Willy's.

[HawkBrosMav]

Gary you're obviously too set in your ways to even consider anything anybody has said opposing your views. You're not even reading what I'm writing and just responding with more info trying to support your finish line picture...

if you would like me to walk you down the track or draw you picture next time we are at the same track I'd love too. sorry you can't grasp reality...

BH

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by HawkBrosMav

Gary you're obviously too set in your ways to even consider anything anybody has said opposing your views. You're not even reading what I'm writing and just responding with more info trying to support your finish line picture...

if you would like me to walk you down the track or draw you picture next time we are at the same track I'd love too. sorry you can't grasp reality...

BH

Ok BH, I'll walk with you down the track, but before I do ponder this...In the Super Gas final, I'm positive that Mike Ferderer staged his car with the tires, while the nose of his car was already nearly 2ft. down course. However, the finish line wasn't tripped by his tire but by the nose of his car...therefore his 1320ft race was really only about 1318ft. How was that fair for Dennis Paz's old school vehicle that started & finished a full 1320ft with the tires? Same goes for the Super Stock Final, albeit not quite as dramatic...one things for certain though, Brad's Cavalier's nose was at the end of the finish-line stripe (during the second freeze frame shot), while the Colbalt of Justin's was just beyond the sensor part of the stripe (at the early part). You can't draw any kind of picture that's different from the obviously shown still shots of those two cars at the stripe. I clearly can grasp reality...it was right there on the tv screen live and in "Technicolor" for all to see, especially me...

[HawkBrosMav]

What you fail to grasp is the concept of bracket racing... We will go with the Mike and Dennis race since you brought it up. Each driver dial's his car after making time run's. In super gas this consist of putting a number in a throttle stop timer not changing the number on the side of your car like we would in s/ss. Mike will put a number in the timer in his car to start with the tire and take the strip with his nose (which is 2ft in front of his tire). Dennis will put a number in his timer that will be based off his car leaving with the tire and taking the stripe with the tire. They run the race mike gets to the end parks his nose just in front of Dennis's tire and win's by .00x.

I will now explain why this is not only the correct out come but it will not even change if you lower the beam to make mike take the stripe with his tire. (This is what you seem to be so adamant about doing)

Now that the beam has been lowered to 3". here is how it would go down. Dennis's pass and number in the timer would remain exactly the same as his car would still be leaving and finishing with the tire. Mike on the other hand would now have to put less time in his throttle stop timer to make up the difference in ET from his car taking the stripe with the tire now.

We both agree Mike would have been slower if his car took the stripe with the tire. What you don't seem to be able to understand is that Mike would have KNOWN his car was going to be slow and he would have made the adjustment in the timer before he even staged the car.

After Mike makes this change the race would go just as it did. Mike would still light the win bulb. Absolutely the only difference would be the picture that you keep looking at in technicolor. Mike's nose would now be way ahead of Dennis's lil pickup and Mike's tire would now be the part of his car that was edging Dennis for the stripe by .00x.

I'm not trying to be an asshole I'm just trying to help a fellow racer understand a basic concept of drag racing.

Brad Hawk

[hemidup]

Both cars leave from an even start off the front tires, but one wins with a finish off the nose? Sounds more like a street race to me than a drag race.