Alcohol dragster?

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by rx dealer

I will stick with my original post about the brakes on the nitro and alcohol cars...does anyone have a photo of a nitro/alcohol dragster or funny car brakes and lets compare it to a formula 1 car brakes...let the photo's do the the talking...it's time to stop using outdated brake design...Luke SS 311

Have you ever tried to stop a dragster really quickly from 150MPH or more without a parachute? You have more than enough brakes to stop the tire already on just about any modern dragster. The problem is when you try to stop the car quickly, the back tires will quickly begin to bounce, the more brake you apply, the more, harder, and higher it bounces. I've seen a dragster with 13x31 tires get 3 feet off the ground trying to stop quickly at 140MPH.

You could put another 4 piston caliper on each rear wheel with a 12" rotor. It would not matter, you cannot use that much brake. The back tires will go 3 feet in the air.

The front tires on dragsters and funny cars are designed to steer the car, not designed to exert or withstand a great deal of braking force. They have neither the contact area nor the strength necessary to generate any real stopping force. The front suspension and the frames are not designed to withstand that sort of force either.

You simply cannot just hang some great big brakes on a car without first designing the car and the tires to use the brakes. Drag cars and the tires used on them simply are not designed for big brakes and the forces they generate.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Have you ever tried to stop a dragster really quickly from 150MPH or more without a parachute? You have more than enough brakes to stop the tire already on just about any modern dragster. The problem is when you try to stop the car quickly, the back tires will quickly begin to bounce, the more brake you apply, the more, harder, and higher it bounces. I've seen a dragster with 13x31 tires get 3 feet off the ground trying to stop quickly at 140MPH.

You could put another 4 piston caliper on each rear wheel with a 12" rotor. It would not matter, you cannot use that much brake. The back tires will go 3 feet in the air.

The front tires on dragsters and funny cars are designed to steer the car, not designed to exert or withstand a great deal of braking force. They have neither the contact area nor the strength necessary to generate any real stopping force. The front suspension and the frames are not designed to withstand that sort of force either.

You simply cannot just hang some great big brakes on a car without first designing the car and the tires to use the brakes. Drag cars and the tires used on them simply are not designed for big brakes and the forces they generate.

I'll bet if someone developed an anti lock system,to keep the brakes from locking,they would stop these cars safely.
Quote: I don't believe the two alcohol incidents are related by cause.
Wade,this incident and Alexis DeJoria's were the same.The Kalitta and the other were simular in that both cars didn't decelerate because the engines were still under power.That's two avenues for Ca. to get outside help to correct.

[Alan Roehrich]

Ed, the back tires do not have to lock up to make the car bounce. It just makes them bounce worse.

The biggest problem, other than the bounce, is the fact that there's nothing on the front of the car to support heavy braking action. When you're hard on the brakes, weight transfers forward. There's not enough wheel, tire, spindle, or axle to support both the weight transfer and the forces generated by the braking action. At best you'll just slide the tires, at worst you'll tear something up, and maybe make a bad situation worse. You aren't going to stop an 1800 pound car going 250MPH with an Anglia spindle.

Putting front brakes on a 300" dragster with a flexible slip joint frame and 2" wide tires is probably not going to be a good idea, either.

An ABS system is going to be extremely difficult and cost prohibitive to develop and install. Sure, the F1 cars have ABS. But those teams have hundreds of millions of dollars to spend. You're talking about teams that have a dyno that not only replicates the engine speeds of a lap, but also the forces exerted on the drivetrain through the chassis during that lap. NASCAR doesn't have ABS, for various reasons, and they have OEM backing.

An ABS system is going to require at least 3-6 sensors, reluctor wheels, wiring, a computer, a power supply for the computer, a brake distribution block, servo motors, a power supply for those servo motors, all the extra plumbing, and programming. Then NHRA is going to have to police it to keep it from being used as a traction control device. And the drivers won't like it because they won't have the control they like to keep the tires from spinning.

Ideas and suggestions are great. Don't get me wrong. But the wrong idea could make an already bad situation worse.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Have you ever tried to stop a dragster really quickly from 150MPH or more without a parachute? You have more than enough brakes to stop the tire already on just about any modern dragster. The problem is when you try to stop the car quickly, the back tires will quickly begin to bounce, the more brake you apply, the more, harder, and higher it bounces. I've seen a dragster with 13x31 tires get 3 feet off the ground trying to stop quickly at 140MPH.

You could put another 4 piston caliper on each rear wheel with a 12" rotor. It would not matter, you cannot use that much brake. The back tires will go 3 feet in the air.

The front tires on dragsters and funny cars are designed to steer the car, not designed to exert or withstand a great deal of braking force. They have neither the contact area nor the strength necessary to generate any real stopping force. The front suspension and the frames are not designed to withstand that sort of force either.

You simply cannot just hang some great big brakes on a car without first designing the car and the tires to use the brakes. Drag cars and the tires used on them simply are not designed for big brakes and the forces they generate.

Formula 1 Brakes:





Dragster Rear Brakes:

[Floyd Staggs]

Okay then, we can't put bigger brakes on them, we can't put a cable catch on them, we can't put 4 parachutes on them, we can't use ABS but if I remember correctly a big time pro was using ABS as a traction control device a couple of years ago, we can't slow them down, so, I repeat, cut the distance and give them 320' more stopping distance. If they make it across the board everybody will be the same.
JMHO

[Alan Roehrich]

Actually, Floyd, they can substantially improve the track shutdown area, and solve a lot of problems for everyone.

NHRA is simply looking for a way to pass the cost on to the racers, because they don't want to spend their money (it really belongs to the members) and they can't get the tracks to spend their money because NHRA is already cutting their throats.

So they tell the racers to go buy new brakes. That's right, they told the alcohol racers to go buy carbon fiber rotors if they don't have them. They already changed the parachute mount spec, and they're looking at adding more to it. Don't get me wrong, those are improvements to the cars, for safety. They're also going to mandate a cut off switch for alcohol just as the fuel cars have now.

But NHRA is not spending any money on it. That's why they like it. That's why they like the 1000' solution, too.

The "pit" and the net can be improved. But Graham Light says "we've used that stuff for years, and it's always worked". Well, the racers have used their brakes for years, and they've always worked, too. And even NHRA says the alcohol cars have not gotten much faster in 5 years.

NHRA could, with their resources, set out an open bid for a contract to fix the tracks. They could easily finance it. Why don't they? NASCAR spent millions of dollars on testing, and then went about implementing what they learned. NHRA could accept bids from contractors on a new net system, and a new shutdown area. I'd bet Jim Head would be one of the first in line, he probably has a few things in mind already. NHRA could also help the tracks get financing, and offer them contracts to guarantee they'd have enough races to pay off the loan.

But they're not doing it. They continue to put cars on poorly prepared tracks, with safety systems that have not been improved in decades. They make the racers buy new belts, new jackets, new pants, new helmets, and have their cars certified and re-certified. They spend the racers' money, they spend the track owners' money, but they're not spending theirs.

[Greg Hill]

Alan, it's because they are putting the money in their own pocket.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

Alan, it's because they are putting the money in their own pocket.

Rhetorical question, Greg.

[Floyd Staggs]

Alan, I agree with all of that but the cars are getting faster and faster all the time. I remember when I ran stock back in the early 60's I had a fast stocker in the low 12's, high 11's. Top fuel was barely 200. Now you have comp cars over 200 and stockers in the 9's. It's all relative, I know.
Some tracks don't have the real estate to expand their shutdown area. I like 1320 racing. But terminal velocity has gotten to the point it's almost out of control.
The contest is an accelaration contest, the one that accelerates the fastest to a given point is the winner. Does it matter what that given point is?
JMHO

[Eric Merryfield]

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

Alan, it's because they are putting the money in their own pocket.

I just watched the video for the first time and am stunned at how tight the net was....He should have walked away. Such a tragedy. To rapid of a deceleration will always result in heartbreak.

Perhaps something that the stunt drivers use would work.

A soft net followed by row upon row upon row of free used up slicks, with perhaps another net and if all else fails a water barrier. Car will be trashed, but who cares, a soft landing is better than no landing at all.

You could also try and engineer cockpit deceleration in addition. Remote activated airbags, or sensor based like in street cars. There must be a Physics and mechanical engineering guru out there!