The Future of our class - Page 2

X-TECH MAN · 12-24-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ed fernandez

bill,that was my solution.as long as we go to nationals,as they are structured now and the type of spectators who attend,we'll continue to be treated like ***** and used like the cash cows that we've become.

x 2

Dick Butler · 12-24-2010, 03:06 PM

Too many motor types and specs to check. It would be totally counter to religion of Stock and SS with the motors having "specs" but Mod production only type motors 2 barrel, 4 barrell, 2/4 or injection and lb/cubic inch would remove many opportunities to Cheat. Pump them at the end of the track by the scales and go home.
No more cam cheating, crank cheating, rod cheating, piston cheating.
No I dont like it but it would cure a lot.

JRyan · 12-24-2010, 03:25 PM

Yeah of course you're right Dick. It would cure a lot. Mostly it would cure many people from the addiction they now have (class racing) and give them time to persue another endeavour. I think you're over-estimating the number of people that can actually afford to build a competitive comp style engine.

Jerry

Dick Butler · 12-24-2010, 04:08 PM

All racers see the "issues" from THEIR prospective. What car they own affects their stand. What brand they support, what dealers give them parts etc etc.
We have all been tied to the "factory Spec" ideas so long any major leveling of the fields by common specs or parts is FOREIGN and OFFENSIVE.
Look at sports car club racing. (my limited knowledge). One motor, one class. Bigger motor another class. Sealed motors to keep costs down. Different Brands in separate classes.
Many months ago Jim Boburka and myself and others suggested Common specs for three brands with common wt cars. All based on Current available over the counter parts.
A FOREIGN idea if you own a car to sell, or only know one motor or stuck in your ways.
Much like super modified with Limited flat top piston, head combinations. Cheaper, over the counter and use in body styles you may already have in the garage.
When started could be divided by wts into multiple classes if needed.
Win with a tune up, traction set up, tire or gear choices. DRIVING SKILL. Not bogus HP ratings, Bogus specs, Ignored combinations from archives.

Ed Fernandez · 12-25-2010, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

All racers see the "issues" from THEIR prospective. What car they own affects their stand. What brand they support, what dealers give them parts etc etc.
We have all been tied to the "factory Spec" ideas so long any major leveling of the fields by common specs or parts is FOREIGN and OFFENSIVE.
Look at sports car club racing. (my limited knowledge). One motor, one class. Bigger motor another class. Sealed motors to keep costs down. Different Brands in separate classes.
Many months ago Jim Boburka and myself and others suggested Common specs for three brands with common wt cars. All based on Current available over the counter parts.
A FOREIGN idea if you own a car to sell, or only know one motor or stuck in your ways.
Much like super modified with Limited flat top piston, head combinations. Cheaper, over the counter and use in body styles you may already have in the garage.
When started could be divided by wts into multiple classes if needed.
Win with a tune up, traction set up, tire or gear choices. DRIVING SKILL. Not bogus HP ratings, Bogus specs, Ignored combinations from archives.

Dick as an AMC racer I think your idea sucks and smacks of discrimination towards
independent brand cars.:>)

GarysZ24 · 12-25-2010, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

There are quite a few guys out there that are flying,that for one reason or another don't
go a lot of rounds.They would only get torn down based how fast they go.And we all know that there are very few teardowns for any reason.
When the last pair go down the track it looks like rush hour in the Tokyo suway for everyone to get out of there.The last thing you'll see is a teardown session.
My opinion/solution?
Remove sportsman racers,up to and including Comp. (if the comp guys want to),from
nationals and run us at two sports nationals in each division.That's 14 races.Make the
points counting towards the W/C consist of the usual 5/8 divisionals and 2/4 sports nats.
The tourers can still run all the races they want.The budget guys get a bit of a break.
That,and a little budgeting work on the part of Glendora would free up enough caash to pay the divisin tech people what they deserve for what they do.It would also pay for the equipment needed to do the work.
Hell,they just voted two more cash cows to the board,so they could figure out a way to come up with the cash to fund a quality tech dept.
Lastly no more East coast/West coast rule book.
I'll put the bong down now and retire to my bedroom.

Ed, I like this ideal of yours best, because I could care less about being at a national event with the pros...they (and the alcoholic cars), get most of the tv air-time anyhow, so I won't go out of my way to watch them at any national events I might attend, when I can go home and see them on ESPN. I'd rather watch Stock & Super Stock (when not racing myself). I wish there would be more sportsnationals (sans the Tad's and Tafc's), for the reasons you stated...thanks Ed! MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU 2!!!

X-TECH MAN · 12-26-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

All racers see the "issues" from THEIR prospective. What car they own affects their stand. What brand they support, what dealers give them parts etc etc.
We have all been tied to the "factory Spec" ideas so long any major leveling of the fields by common specs or parts is FOREIGN and OFFENSIVE.
Look at sports car club racing. (my limited knowledge). One motor, one class. Bigger motor another class. Sealed motors to keep costs down. Different Brands in separate classes.
Many months ago Jim Boburka and myself and others suggested Common specs for three brands with common wt cars. All based on Current available over the counter parts.
A FOREIGN idea if you own a car to sell, or only know one motor or stuck in your ways.
Much like super modified with Limited flat top piston, head combinations. Cheaper, over the counter and use in body styles you may already have in the garage.
When started could be divided by wts into multiple classes if needed.
Win with a tune up, traction set up, tire or gear choices. DRIVING SKILL. Not bogus HP ratings, Bogus specs, Ignored combinations from archives.

This sounds like IHRA's Super Stock Production classes. 2 barr. 4 barrel, (multi carbs years ago but no longer being used) limited to stock stroke cranks (no wierd cu. inches or wacky comp. type ground cranks. Limited to cubic inches produced by the factory but with a max of .070 overbore blocks. Ported alum heads with factory numbers and NO welding allowed. Not quite mod production or comp engines but not like S/S either with factory specs. It used to be VERY popular in IHRA years ago. It could work but in the long run someone with more money than brains would screw it up for the little guy.

Billy Nees · 12-26-2010, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

All racers see the "issues" from THEIR prospective. What car they own affects their stand. What brand they support, what dealers give them parts etc etc.
We have all been tied to the "factory Spec" ideas so long any major leveling of the fields by common specs or parts is FOREIGN and OFFENSIVE.
Look at sports car club racing. (my limited knowledge). One motor, one class. Bigger motor another class. Sealed motors to keep costs down. Different Brands in separate classes.
Many months ago Jim Boburka and myself and others suggested Common specs for three brands with common wt cars. All based on Current available over the counter parts.
A FOREIGN idea if you own a car to sell, or only know one motor or stuck in your ways.
Much like super modified with Limited flat top piston, head combinations. Cheaper, over the counter and use in body styles you may already have in the garage.
When started could be divided by wts into multiple classes if needed.
Win with a tune up, traction set up, tire or gear choices. DRIVING SKILL. Not bogus HP ratings, Bogus specs, Ignored combinations from archives.

Dick, I think that is a great idea with just a couple of suggestions, the engines would have to be built and sealed by "approved" engine builders with a "pre-agreed to" price and availability and a "claimer" rule that the winners engine could be bought post-race at a "set price" that would be significantly lower than a new replacement. You get NHRA (and enough racers) to agree to that an you'll have something!

Dick Butler · 12-26-2010, 03:10 PM

Ed, What no AMC 350 blocks, or motors, or heads. The classes I listed were a starter which could be adapted to 90% of current racers. Others could run as is in their classes if wanted or if the 1 % of AMC racers wished I am sure a similar AMC type motor could be created with their input...Remember the goal of the topic was the best for the CLASSES not the best for ED or AMC or Dick BUtler or any one faction. It was with the overall group or classes as a goal. Jeff or other great running AMC guys could adapt.
Billy, if we could find a BIG corp like JEGS to push it and who would earn money from production of the motors it would FILL the pits with cars.

dahkahuna · 12-26-2010, 04:21 PM

Nhra has lost the handle along time ago on Stock Eliminator rules enforcement,as the rules changed camshafts,springs,it was increasingly easier for racers and nhra to look the other way accordingly.Depending on what era you grew into, 60's,70's,80's,etc I think has a direct influence on what and how you build your car, integrity now has been compromised for winning at any cost. Cost of racing has skyrocked more so for the technology that has trickled down through to Stock, but what has been lost is the definition of our class, once known as a entry level class, now has become more expensive than what it took to run a Pro Stock in the 70's. Were all guilty for the sake of going faster we have excepted this racing and its rules structure and ultimately its demize because INTEGRITY, HONESTY,and RULES, have been thrown out the window.I once changed classes from Super/Stock back to Stock because the cylinder head rule changed and spending $5000 and more to keep up performance was out of the question now I find myself again at a crossroad,$50,000 and up Stockers just doesnt make sense.Acid dipped bodies,acid dipped cylinder heads,$4000 headers,55mm camshafts,light wt valves,spools, axles, brakes, transmissions,suspension pieces front and back, and racepak computers,have all been overlooked and excepted as the normal thing to due. The Stock Eliminator world has a ever changing horizon but a $100,000 race car, trailer,truck,support equipment,etc doesnt seem worth the investment just to win $3000 to $12,000 dollars and Wally if your ever lucky enough to win the Big Show and still be treated worse than a local bracket racer at your local track.....just my 2cents.

12-24-2010, 03:06 PM	#12
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: The Future of our class Too many motor types and specs to check. It would be totally counter to religion of Stock and SS with the motors having "specs" but Mod production only type motors 2 barrel, 4 barrell, 2/4 or injection and lb/cubic inch would remove many opportunities to Cheat. Pump them at the end of the track by the scales and go home. No more cam cheating, crank cheating, rod cheating, piston cheating. No I dont like it but it would cure a lot.

12-24-2010, 03:25 PM	#13
JRyan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aberdeen SD Posts: 645 Likes: 30 Liked 112 Times in 31 Posts	Re: The Future of our class Yeah of course you're right Dick. It would cure a lot. Mostly it would cure many people from the addiction they now have (class racing) and give them time to persue another endeavour. I think you're over-estimating the number of people that can actually afford to build a competitive comp style engine. Jerry

12-24-2010, 04:08 PM	#14
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: The Future of our class All racers see the "issues" from THEIR prospective. What car they own affects their stand. What brand they support, what dealers give them parts etc etc. We have all been tied to the "factory Spec" ideas so long any major leveling of the fields by common specs or parts is FOREIGN and OFFENSIVE. Look at sports car club racing. (my limited knowledge). One motor, one class. Bigger motor another class. Sealed motors to keep costs down. Different Brands in separate classes. Many months ago Jim Boburka and myself and others suggested Common specs for three brands with common wt cars. All based on Current available over the counter parts. A FOREIGN idea if you own a car to sell, or only know one motor or stuck in your ways. Much like super modified with Limited flat top piston, head combinations. Cheaper, over the counter and use in body styles you may already have in the garage. When started could be divided by wts into multiple classes if needed. Win with a tune up, traction set up, tire or gear choices. DRIVING SKILL. Not bogus HP ratings, Bogus specs, Ignored combinations from archives.

12-26-2010, 03:10 PM	#19
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: The Future of our class Ed, What no AMC 350 blocks, or motors, or heads. The classes I listed were a starter which could be adapted to 90% of current racers. Others could run as is in their classes if wanted or if the 1 % of AMC racers wished I am sure a similar AMC type motor could be created with their input...Remember the goal of the topic was the best for the CLASSES not the best for ED or AMC or Dick BUtler or any one faction. It was with the overall group or classes as a goal. Jeff or other great running AMC guys could adapt. Billy, if we could find a BIG corp like JEGS to push it and who would earn money from production of the motors it would FILL the pits with cars. Last edited by Dick Butler; 12-26-2010 at 03:14 PM.

12-26-2010, 04:21 PM	#20
dahkahuna Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: san dimas , calif Posts: 128 Likes: 0 Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Re: The Future of our class Nhra has lost the handle along time ago on Stock Eliminator rules enforcement,as the rules changed camshafts,springs,it was increasingly easier for racers and nhra to look the other way accordingly.Depending on what era you grew into, 60's,70's,80's,etc I think has a direct influence on what and how you build your car, integrity now has been compromised for winning at any cost. Cost of racing has skyrocked more so for the technology that has trickled down through to Stock, but what has been lost is the definition of our class, once known as a entry level class, now has become more expensive than what it took to run a Pro Stock in the 70's. Were all guilty for the sake of going faster we have excepted this racing and its rules structure and ultimately its demize because INTEGRITY, HONESTY,and RULES, have been thrown out the window.I once changed classes from Super/Stock back to Stock because the cylinder head rule changed and spending $5000 and more to keep up performance was out of the question now I find myself again at a crossroad,$50,000 and up Stockers just doesnt make sense.Acid dipped bodies,acid dipped cylinder heads,$4000 headers,55mm camshafts,light wt valves,spools, axles, brakes, transmissions,suspension pieces front and back, and racepak computers,have all been overlooked and excepted as the normal thing to due. The Stock Eliminator world has a ever changing horizon but a $100,000 race car, trailer,truck,support equipment,etc doesnt seem worth the investment just to win $3000 to $12,000 dollars and Wally if your ever lucky enough to win the Big Show and still be treated worse than a local bracket racer at your local track.....just my 2cents.