cbs latest on handbrakes? - Page 4

Jeff Beckman · 04-26-2011, 07:38 AM

Sorry Guys, I should have phrased my comment more as a question. I too am building a Top Dragster and have dual brakes set up on it, and want to ad them to our Super Comp car. Ron's answer for me is correct, that is my understanding and thinking. I do believe that NHRA does fear the use of hand brakes as a finish line/crash opportunity. Also JFR using it as a traction control activator is where the rule came from, how that effects Sportsman safety is beyond me. No I do not know anyone who uses the hand brake at the finish line, but if it is in the car, I know people and someone by human nature just wont be able to resist, I dont want to be in the other lane. I like the morse cable for rule compliance, but I am trying to figure out a second pedal, our maybe I am just trying to reinvent the wheel. Anyhow, I am not trying to show off my ignorance or stir the pot, but sometimes we (racers) are easy to rile up.

krugracing12 · 04-26-2011, 09:04 AM

Jeff
When I spoke to our D-1 guys, I was also told of the traction control by the pros and even some cheating at the sportsman level. Instead of aggressive tech inspection and finish line monitoring, Glendora's answer was this rule. Having wrecked a car from a .99 cent part failing at the worst time, I am sensitive to this issue. There is no worse feeling in the world than knowing you are going to crash, and having a while to think about it before you hit. My use for it is strictly for a safety/backup. We even plumbed each system down opposite sides of the car, it would take a significant failure of the rotor or the caliper mounting plate to completely disable the brakes. I use Strange parts and G/Y 2200 pro-stock tires and a stab of the foot brake will easily lock them up at any speed.

You could place the 2nd pedal and M/C deeper in the center of the cockpit. If you lose your brakes, as long as you don't panic, you have a while to think about what to do.

Bill

Maverick · 04-26-2011, 10:28 AM

The question was raised do you know anyone who drives the finish line with the hand brake. I was not in the car with him at the time, but I talked to the west coast champ, with the roadster, with the surf boards, that was racing everywhere that year. I believe 2009. And he stated that what he does, and I was just amazed that anyone would pull the brake that hard. He stated it won't lock the brakes up, but he felt it was safe effective method, if you can't catch the guy. That was the first time I heard of it, and I believe the group was five or six racers, that were waiting for the time to move there trailers at the US Nationals. There is one, and I believe that he was not the only one in the group, but I got to know talk to the guy a few times and that is what he stated. Steve Willie Williams Super gas 351N

Chris Williams · 04-26-2011, 11:02 AM

I am finishing up our SC/TD car and decided to put on a dual rear brake system. Using Wilwood's dual MC system, two separate lines to the rear and dual calipers. My thinking being that 3/4ths of the system is redundant. Protects against several common failure scenarios: leaking fitting, line rupture, FOD or failure at the caliper, etc. Yes, you can envision another set of failures that it still doesn't help: pedal disconnect, catastrophic MC failure, bracket failure, and since the lines run down the same frame rail, frame tube destruction. But it still seems worth the expense/effort.

As for the "too easy to lock it up", I'm just baffled. With sufficient pressure, you can lock up any brake system and get in trouble. The trick is to not push that hard... like you always do? In short, I'm at a loss as to where in the book of life it says "there's such a thing as too much brake capability". Especially at 180+.

Bill Koski · 04-26-2011, 12:26 PM

My theory is if you're going to use a dual caliper system use a dual master cylinder and connect both calipers on one side to the same brake line. I broke a hat and fortunately the rotor stayed in place enough so the pistons stayed in the caliper, if the rotor had come out of the caliper I would have had zero brakes, single or dual calipers!
I've also seen the ring gear come off and saw off the lower right frame rail a couple of times so both lbrakes lines should run down the left side.

darkside · 04-26-2011, 01:14 PM

Chris, your are 100% right, you can lock up any brakes. With your brake system you don't have to push as hard to do it...around here it's really in "vouge" to dump hard, I am guilty sometimes too and after driving a car with brakes like yours before, I would have trouble with it.

I am not saying you can't have your system, even though I feel they are not as safe as a foot brake, hand brake set up. I know my car is not as safe as it was when I had to take the hand brake out before tech at Charlotte, and a helluva lot harder to get out of the trailer.

Bottom line, and something I think everyone will agree with, if they would enforce the excessive braking rule this would not be an issue.

Rich Biebel · 04-26-2011, 01:41 PM

I agree again 100% with all the reasons a seperate handbrake operated system is safer.

Enforce the rules....unsafe braking gets DQ'ed on the spot......Event director makes the decision.....end of story......Spotters are at the 1000' mark.....They call it...your out.....Don't care who you are, what number is on your car......you skid the back end or put smoke out on a door car and your out.....

Look at the numbers some guys are running vs a red.....and there are more and more people singing the praises of holding rediculous amounts of ET.....This tactic is being promoted in schools conducted by xxxxxx ........Well you can fill that in for yourself....and if you don't know who I am not going to say.....

If everybody holds a tenth.....what the hell do you think happens....

I have used the left pedal to win many, many rounds.....never once got out of control and never was holding the amount thats being done in todays racing.....rediculous...

Chris Williams · 04-26-2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Koski

My theory is if you're going to use a dual caliper system use a dual master cylinder and connect both calipers on one side to the same brake line. I broke a hat and fortunately the rotor stayed in place enough so the pistons stayed in the caliper, if the rotor had come out of the caliper I would have had zero brakes, single or dual calipers!

Problem is that most MCs are not identical side to side. Even the Wilwood dual system designed for drag racing applications has different size fittings for the two outlets. I worry that if you were to run both calipers one side to one outlet, I'd always have more braking on one side than the other. Now there's a recipe for disaster...

Bill Koski · 04-26-2011, 07:49 PM

Do you run an open rear or a posi-trac?
With a spool?

Sharx · 04-26-2011, 09:40 PM

M&M built a redundant system in our Jr. just like they build in the big cars. Had a tech official tell us we had to remove it. I told him no problem, then ask him to spell his name for me, so I made sure to have it correct in the lawsuit, god forbid my daughter had a brake fail and got hurt because she had to remove a safety device. He said on second thought he didn't see an issue with it....

04-26-2011, 07:38 AM	#31
Jeff Beckman Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbus Ohio Posts: 308 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: cbs latest on handbrakes? Sorry Guys, I should have phrased my comment more as a question. I too am building a Top Dragster and have dual brakes set up on it, and want to ad them to our Super Comp car. Ron's answer for me is correct, that is my understanding and thinking. I do believe that NHRA does fear the use of hand brakes as a finish line/crash opportunity. Also JFR using it as a traction control activator is where the rule came from, how that effects Sportsman safety is beyond me. No I do not know anyone who uses the hand brake at the finish line, but if it is in the car, I know people and someone by human nature just wont be able to resist, I dont want to be in the other lane. I like the morse cable for rule compliance, but I am trying to figure out a second pedal, our maybe I am just trying to reinvent the wheel. Anyhow, I am not trying to show off my ignorance or stir the pot, but sometimes we (racers) are easy to rile up. __________________ Jeff Beckman 318J ET, SG 318T SC

04-26-2011, 09:04 AM	#32
krugracing12 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 171 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: cbs latest on handbrakes? Jeff When I spoke to our D-1 guys, I was also told of the traction control by the pros and even some cheating at the sportsman level. Instead of aggressive tech inspection and finish line monitoring, Glendora's answer was this rule. Having wrecked a car from a .99 cent part failing at the worst time, I am sensitive to this issue. There is no worse feeling in the world than knowing you are going to crash, and having a while to think about it before you hit. My use for it is strictly for a safety/backup. We even plumbed each system down opposite sides of the car, it would take a significant failure of the rotor or the caliper mounting plate to completely disable the brakes. I use Strange parts and G/Y 2200 pro-stock tires and a stab of the foot brake will easily lock them up at any speed. You could place the 2nd pedal and M/C deeper in the center of the cockpit. If you lose your brakes, as long as you don't panic, you have a while to think about what to do. Bill

04-26-2011, 10:28 AM	#33
Maverick Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 299 Likes: 3 Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts	Re: cbs latest on handbrakes? The question was raised do you know anyone who drives the finish line with the hand brake. I was not in the car with him at the time, but I talked to the west coast champ, with the roadster, with the surf boards, that was racing everywhere that year. I believe 2009. And he stated that what he does, and I was just amazed that anyone would pull the brake that hard. He stated it won't lock the brakes up, but he felt it was safe effective method, if you can't catch the guy. That was the first time I heard of it, and I believe the group was five or six racers, that were waiting for the time to move there trailers at the US Nationals. There is one, and I believe that he was not the only one in the group, but I got to know talk to the guy a few times and that is what he stated. Steve Willie Williams Super gas 351N

04-26-2011, 11:02 AM	#34
Chris Williams Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Woodinville, WA Posts: 401 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: cbs latest on handbrakes? I am finishing up our SC/TD car and decided to put on a dual rear brake system. Using Wilwood's dual MC system, two separate lines to the rear and dual calipers. My thinking being that 3/4ths of the system is redundant. Protects against several common failure scenarios: leaking fitting, line rupture, FOD or failure at the caliper, etc. Yes, you can envision another set of failures that it still doesn't help: pedal disconnect, catastrophic MC failure, bracket failure, and since the lines run down the same frame rail, frame tube destruction. But it still seems worth the expense/effort. As for the "too easy to lock it up", I'm just baffled. With sufficient pressure, you can lock up any brake system and get in trouble. The trick is to not push that hard... like you always do? In short, I'm at a loss as to where in the book of life it says "there's such a thing as too much brake capability". Especially at 180+. __________________ Chris Williams 6304 SC, TD, ET

04-26-2011, 12:26 PM	#35
Bill Koski Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Las Vegas NV Posts: 213 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: cbs latest on handbrakes? My theory is if you're going to use a dual caliper system use a dual master cylinder and connect both calipers on one side to the same brake line. I broke a hat and fortunately the rotor stayed in place enough so the pistons stayed in the caliper, if the rotor had come out of the caliper I would have had zero brakes, single or dual calipers! I've also seen the ring gear come off and saw off the lower right frame rail a couple of times so both lbrakes lines should run down the left side.

04-26-2011, 01:14 PM	#36
darkside Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 56 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: cbs latest on handbrakes? Chris, your are 100% right, you can lock up any brakes. With your brake system you don't have to push as hard to do it...around here it's really in "vouge" to dump hard, I am guilty sometimes too and after driving a car with brakes like yours before, I would have trouble with it. I am not saying you can't have your system, even though I feel they are not as safe as a foot brake, hand brake set up. I know my car is not as safe as it was when I had to take the hand brake out before tech at Charlotte, and a helluva lot harder to get out of the trailer. Bottom line, and something I think everyone will agree with, if they would enforce the excessive braking rule this would not be an issue. __________________ Lynn Ellison

04-26-2011, 01:41 PM	#37
Rich Biebel VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern New Jersey suburbs Posts: 2,314 Likes: 25 Liked 544 Times in 213 Posts	Re: cbs latest on handbrakes? I agree again 100% with all the reasons a seperate handbrake operated system is safer. Enforce the rules....unsafe braking gets DQ'ed on the spot......Event director makes the decision.....end of story......Spotters are at the 1000' mark.....They call it...your out.....Don't care who you are, what number is on your car......you skid the back end or put smoke out on a door car and your out..... Look at the numbers some guys are running vs a red.....and there are more and more people singing the praises of holding rediculous amounts of ET.....This tactic is being promoted in schools conducted by xxxxxx ........Well you can fill that in for yourself....and if you don't know who I am not going to say..... If everybody holds a tenth.....what the hell do you think happens.... I have used the left pedal to win many, many rounds.....never once got out of control and never was holding the amount thats being done in todays racing.....rediculous... __________________ Rich Biebel S/C 1479 Stock 147R Last edited by Rich Biebel; 04-26-2011 at 01:49 PM.

04-26-2011, 07:49 PM	#39
Bill Koski Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Las Vegas NV Posts: 213 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: cbs latest on handbrakes? Do you run an open rear or a posi-trac? With a spool?

04-26-2011, 09:40 PM	#40
Sharx Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 29 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: cbs latest on handbrakes? M&M built a redundant system in our Jr. just like they build in the big cars. Had a tech official tell us we had to remove it. I told him no problem, then ask him to spell his name for me, so I made sure to have it correct in the lawsuit, god forbid my daughter had a brake fail and got hurt because she had to remove a safety device. He said on second thought he didn't see an issue with it....