Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by JHeath

Alan, doesn't your wife have anything better for you to do? I've seen this exact post a dozen times within the past two weeks! We get it! You hate these new cars and want Stock Eliminator to be "69 Camaro Eliminator" for the rest of our lives. Copying in that paragraph from the rulebook over and over and over again on here isn't going to get the HP factors fixed, or the cars put in their own class, or even banished from Stock Eliminator like you seem to want so badly. Give it a rest already!

I've never posted that before, ever. Not even once. Never mind a dozen times in two weeks.

I don't hate the new cars at all.

I don't care anything about it being "69 Camaro Eliminator". I don't particularly like 69 Camaros, the guy I race with does.

Try getting your facts straight, as opposed to resorting to hyperbole and exaggeration.

[BadBanana]

"There was a time when NHRA knew this. Purpose built factory race cars were put in Super Stock or Factory Experimental classes, where they belonged."

You made some good points (high hp cars on small slicks - dangerous !!!) but drew some poor conclusions.
The above statement wasn't exactly true. When it all started in the early 60s there was only Stock Elim. Super Stock was a class in it. In '62 the top class in Stock Elim was Super Super Stock (413 Chryslers, 409 Chevys, 406 Fords, 421 Pontiacs) They were limited to 7" slicks; and drew the crowds. When they ran Top Stock Elim. at the '62 Nationals it was the top Stock cars, including SS/S cars. When they ran the Elim. there were even some A/S cars in it..

The point that JHeath makes is very valid. If you don't come up with a way to co-exist in Stock Elim. and "give it up", you will lose your Eliminator.
Figure it out. Take your concerns and figure them out; but don't exclude the future or you will lose - guaranteed !!!
Form a Stock /Super Stock association and work out the details to everybody's (well almost everybody's) satisfaction with some give and take, and get it ALL hashed out and written up and signed by everyone and then present the package to NHRA, in a way that will benefit them, as well.
for a small example - give the new 7 lb. classes 10 " slicks for their class only.
Why in the world would you care - as long as the handicap is correct from your class to theirs ???

[davidhuff]

Give me a break,do you guys actual think a 1969 camaro nhra stocker resembles any thing that ever came off a Chevy dealer showroom floor(after market blocks,after market pistons,high dollar acid prepared heads and intakes,metric trans,after market light front brakes,after market ignitions and the list goes on.Stock my ***!

[JHeath]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I've never posted that before, ever. Not even once. Never mind a dozen times in two weeks.

I don't hate the new cars at all.

I don't care anything about it being "69 Camaro Eliminator". I don't particularly like 69 Camaros, the guy I race with does.

Try getting your facts straight, as opposed to resorting to hyperbole and exaggeration.

Sorry, you were right, I checked my facts. You've only posted six times in this thread that the new cars can't be registered at the DMV or don't have VINs or are factory built race cars or go against the premise of Stock Eliminator or are making old cars obsolete or whatever your argument is. I'm sure everybody understood you the first time.

If you don't hate these new cars, why are you wasting so much time writing up essays on how they don't deserve to be in Stock?

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by BadBanana

"There was a time when NHRA knew this. Purpose built factory race cars were put in Super Stock or Factory Experimental classes, where they belonged."

You made some good points (high hp cars on small slicks - dangerous !!!) but drew some poor conclusions.
The above statement wasn't exactly true. When it all started in the early 60s there was only Stock Elim. Super Stock was a class in it. In '62 the top class in Stock Elim was Super Super Stock (413 Chryslers, 409 Chevys, 406 Fords, 421 Pontiacs) They were limited to 7" slicks; and drew the crowds. When they ran Top Stock Elim. at the '62 Nationals it was the top Stock cars, including SS/S cars. When they ran the Elim. there were even some A/S cars in it..

The point that JHeath makes is very valid. If you don't come up with a way to co-exist in Stock Elim. and "give it up", you will lose your Eliminator.
Figure it out. Take your concerns and figure them out; but don't exclude the future or you will lose - guaranteed !!!
Form a Stock /Super Stock association and work out the details to everybody's (well almost everybody's) satisfaction with some give and take, and get it ALL hashed out and written up and signed by everyone and then present the package to NHRA, in a way that will benefit them, as well.
for a small example - give the new 7 lb. classes 10 " slicks for their class only.
Why in the world would you care - as long as the handicap is correct from your class to theirs ???

First, we're talking about Stock Eliminator as it has been for about 40 years, with Super Stock (oddly enough where the Hemi powered factory race cars went as soon as they were released) as an entirely separate class. The Stock Eliminator that 90% of the people discussing this have been in for years.

Which of the 409 cars were factory race cars, limited production? The closest would be the 63 Z-11. The 406 Fords were limited production? The Mopars? Those were production cars sold in volume to the general public. But we're not talking about stripped down muscle cars sold to the general public you could drive home from the dealer anymore.


Who said anything about not allowing new cars? New cars are fine. Try to convince Ford of that, by the way. Find a new Ford production Mustang in the guide after 2008. Good luck with that. I hope they bring in every new combination Ford GM and Chrysler sell for street use to the general public, and put every single one of them in the guide, they belong there.

The new factory race cars are great, I like them. Some of my good friends own them. They belong on the drag strip. But they belong in their own class. Honestly, they need an F/X class, with 10.5 slicks, their own factors, their own weight breaks, with their own indexes, and their own safety regulations, so they can really show their true performance. They really need to be on 10.5" slicks, with weight breaks starting at 6.0 or 7.0 up to about 9.0, with full 12 point cages, and indexes starting out at around 9.70 or 9.90, low enough that they can go out and race, instead of sandbagging to protect their factors.

Showcase the new cars, let them really run, let them really fight it out. If you had a few F/X classes, with 1 pound weight breaks, you'd have 32 cars or so going fast, with plenty of hard core heads up races, low ET's, big MPH, and a great show.

[Chris Barnes]

Once again, Alan is the man.

Chris Barnes
Wagons of Steel
Stock 6621

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

First, we're talking about Stock Eliminator as it has been for about 40 years, with Super Stock (oddly enough where the Hemi powered factory race cars went as soon as they were released) as an entirely separate class. The Stock Eliminator that 90% of the people discussing this have been in for years.

Which of the 409 cars were factory race cars, limited production? The closest would be the 63 Z-11. The 406 Fords were limited production? The Mopars? Those were production cars sold in volume to the general public. But we're not talking about stripped down muscle cars sold to the general public you could drive home from the dealer anymore.


Who said anything about not allowing new cars? New cars are fine. Try to convince Ford of that, by the way. Find a new Ford production Mustang in the guide after 2008. Good luck with that. I hope they bring in every new combination Ford GM and Chrysler sell for street use to the general public, and put every single one of them in the guide, they belong there.

The new factory race cars are great, I like them. Some of my good friends own them. They belong on the drag strip. But they belong in their own class. Honestly, they need an F/X class, with 10.5 slicks, their own factors, their own weight breaks, with their own indexes, and their own safety regulations, so they can really show their true performance. They really need to be on 10.5" slicks, with weight breaks starting at 6.0 or 7.0 up to about 9.0, with full 12 point cages, and indexes starting out at around 9.70 or 9.90, low enough that they can go out and race, instead of sandbagging to protect their factors.

Showcase the new cars, let them really run, let them really fight it out. If you had a few F/X classes, with 1 pound weight breaks, you'd have 32 cars or so going fast, with plenty of hard core heads up races, low ET's, big MPH, and a great show.

Dont forget the lower classes these things have invaded like J, K, L. Lets not stop at 9 pounds per HP unless NHRA gets the HP factors right.....Yeah.....FAT CHANCE of that happening.

[Bob Pagano]

At the rate they are going now it would not surprise me one bit if nhra went to crate motor, is that not what some of the new ford combos are anyway.

[BadBanana]

Once again, you're making progress, Alan. Slow, but some progress. I know about the 409s and Z-11s I had both when they were new. See the segment here about the '62 Nationals on this same site (the Z-11 is pictured there). Ran the 409 in SS/S at the 62 Nats. Received the Z-11 the next Winter and raced in '63.
To your point, when could you actually buy a '69 427/425 Camaro from the factory? Few had them from the factory, and I tried to buy one from my dealer - no dice !!! I settled for a 375hp 396 SS Camaro. Later people like Baldwin and Yenko made them. Back in those days NHRA forced the OEM Manuf. to make at least 50 before they would consider them into S and S/S. Geez, where have I heard that lately ????? My SS/EA started out as a 69 6 cyl Camaro.

We have met the enemy and they are US.

[BadBanana]

I must be reading this incorrectly - please tell me that I am !!!
According to the qualifying sheet for Stock qualifying at this weeks Nationals, the top 126 qualifiers were all over.6 under their index; and the top 19 at least 1 second under?? ABSURD !!!

Order for Qualifying Round 3
CLERMONT, Ind. - SUMMIT FastNews - Order after 3 rounds of qualifying in Stock Eliminator at the NHRA Full Throttle Drag Racing Series, 57th annual Mac Tools U.S. Nationals presented by Lucas Oil: Psn Driver Class Index ET Ov/Un 1. David Barton A/SA 11.00 9.676 -1.324 2. Don Fezell AA/S 10.60 9.384 -1.216 3. William Skillman AA/SA 10.60 9.415 -1.185 4. Keith Lynch A/SA 11.00 9.834 -1.166 5. Bo Butner AA/SA 10.60 9.449 -1.151 6. Terry Emmons AA/SA 10.60 9.477 -1.123 7. David Buckner A/SA 11.00 9.896 -1.104 8. Charlie Fitzsimmons A/SA 11.00 9.903 -1.097 9. Irvin Johns B/SA 11.25 10.169 -1.081 10. Kevin Helms A/S 10.95 9.874 -1.076 11. Gary Summers L/SA 12.70 11.625 -1.075 12. Derek Atwill B/SA 11.25 10.178 -1.072 13. Randy Warford A/SA 11.00 9.936 -1.064 14. Bill Skillman AA/SA 10.60 9.564 -1.036 15. Mike Morgan K/SA 12.65 11.618 -1.032 16. Bo Kenney AA/SA 10.60 9.577 -1.023 17. Douglas Duell A/SA 11.00 9.987 -1.013 18. Mike Pustelny A/SA 11.00 9.988 -1.012 19. Evan Smith AA/SA 10.60 9.610 -0.990 20. Paula Cotten G/SA 12.00 11.015 -0.985 21. Charles Blossom CF/S 15.15 14.165 -0.985 22. Wade Owens M/SA 12.85 11.866 -0.984 23. Andy Durham AA/SA 10.60 9.619 -0.981 24. Leonard Mattingly B/SA 11.25 10.293 -0.957 25. Kyle Ratcliff C/SA 11.40 10.447 -0.953 26. Jimmy Holzman AA/SA 10.60 9.650 -0.950 27. Chuck Beach G/SA 12.00 11.061 -0.939 28. Robbie Hudlow B/SA 11.25 10.311 -0.939 29. Ken Miele A/SA 11.00 10.067 -0.933 30. Eugene Monahan J/SA 12.45 11.520 -0.930 31. Barry Parker H/SA 12.15 11.222 -0.928 32. Joey Wilkes E/SA 11.70 10.772 -0.928 33. Randy Wilkes B/SA 11.25 10.322 -0.928 34. Gary Richard C/SA 11.40 10.473 -0.927 35. Tim Bishop B/S 11.20 10.274 -0.926 36. Caleb McFarland A/S 10.95 10.025 -0.925 37. David Thomas AA/SA 10.60 9.676 -0.924 38. Francois Periard B/SA 11.25 10.333 -0.917 39. David Walther G/S 11.90 10.991 -0.909 40. Charley Downing K/S 12.55 11.642 -0.908 41. Tim Weinzapfel R/S 13.95 13.045 -0.905 42. Al Corda B/SA 11.25 10.348 -0.902 43. Jeff Teuton F/SA 11.85 10.950 -0.900 44. Jerry Bennett E/SA 11.70 10.805 -0.895 45. Duane Dickens K/SA 12.65 11.762 -0.888 46. Verne Buchanan H/SA 12.15 11.265 -0.885 47. Paul Boster D/SA 11.55 10.665 -0.885 48. Donnie Beeler G/S 11.90 11.019 -0.881 49. Tim Lowe K/SA 12.65 11.774 -0.876 50. Wayne Totaro B/SA 11.25 10.378 -0.872 51. Jeff Taylor C/SA 11.40 10.528 -0.872 52. Bob Gere L/SA 12.70 11.832 -0.868 53. Bryan Phillips E/SA 11.70 10.834 -0.866 54. Jim Boudreau B/SA 11.25 10.387 -0.863 55. Sam Pourciau C/SA 11.40 10.543 -0.857 56. Chris Mattingly C/SA 11.40 10.546 -0.854 57. Daniel Cyr B/SA 11.25 10.405 -0.845 58. Larry Hill B/SA 11.25 10.408 -0.842 59. Amanda Matusek AA/SA 10.60 9.758 -0.842 60. Dennis Breeden A/SA 11.00 10.159 -0.841 61. Britt Cummings B/SA 11.25 10.409 -0.841 62. Steve Couch G/SA 12.00 11.160 -0.840 63. Bert Morgan R/SA 14.05 13.212 -0.838 64. John McLeod A/SA 11.00 10.165 -0.835 65. Brett Candies AA/SA 10.60 9.771 -0.829 66. Bill Sempsrott K/S 12.55 11.723 -0.827 67. Brett McFarland B/S 11.20 10.373 -0.827 68. Bill Dyer M/S 12.85 12.026 -0.824 69. Jerry MacNeish D/S 11.50 10.677 -0.823 70. Joe Schaechter E/S 11.65 10.828 -0.822 71. Anthony Fetch B/SA 11.25 10.429 -0.821 72. Dave Edwards C/SA 11.40 10.580 -0.820 73. Gary Emmons C/SA 11.40 10.581 -0.819 74. John Keihn K/SA 12.65 11.833 -0.817 75. Mike Welfel G/SA 12.00 11.187 -0.813 76. Chris Ashley I/SA 12.30 11.487 -0.813 77. Brooks Lee A/SA 11.00 10.191 -0.809 78. Amy Faulk C/SA 11.40 10.592 -0.808 79. Slate Cummings C/SA 11.40 10.593 -0.807 80. Chad Mahlosky H/S 12.00 11.193 -0.807 81. Tom Rambo G/SA 12.00 11.196 -0.804 82. Bobby Warren C/SA 11.40 10.605 -0.795 83. Mikael Lind D/SA 11.55 10.759 -0.791 84. Tim Gillespie F/SA 11.85 11.061 -0.789 85. Randi Lyn Shipp D/SA 11.55 10.762 -0.788 86. Lyn Smith F/SA 11.85 11.063 -0.787 87. Carlton Sweasy H/SA 12.15 11.364 -0.786 88. Jason Lynch M/S 12.85 12.068 -0.782 89. Mike McGinley N/SA 13.00 12.219 -0.781 90. Jimmy Ronzello D/SA 11.55 10.771 -0.779 91. Jason Buckner H/SA 12.15 11.376 -0.774 92. Dan Fletcher F/SA 11.85 11.078 -0.772 93. Mike Ficacci C/SA 11.40 10.630 -0.770 94. Kevin Stubbs B/SA 11.25 10.480 -0.770 95. Chuck Veach H/SA 12.15 11.380 -0.770 96. Ben Wenzel Sr. C/S 11.35 10.581 -0.769 97. Don Garlits A/SA 11.00 10.232 -0.768 98. Larry Smith A/SA 11.00 10.237 -0.763 99. Bob Akers G/SA 12.00 11.242 -0.758 100. Jerry Emmons B/SA 11.25 10.492 -0.758 101. Dic Geary I/SA 12.30 11.545 -0.755 102. Chuck Belanger G/SA 12.00 11.248 -0.752 103. Patrick Downing N/SA 13.00 12.250 -0.750 104. Ron Seibenick EF/S 17.45 16.705 -0.745 105. Edmond Richardson C/SA 11.40 10.664 -0.736 106. Dave Casey A/S 10.95 10.214 -0.736 107. Todd Hoven D/S 11.50 10.765 -0.735 108. Brad Zaskowski C/S 11.35 10.620 -0.730 109. Bill McClister E/SA 11.70 10.981 -0.719 110. Tom Russell E/S 11.65 10.937 -0.713 111. Jerry Hefler M/SA 12.85 12.139 -0.711 112. Doug Auxier D/S 11.50 10.791 -0.709 113. Jerry Stamps E/SA 11.70 10.992 -0.708 114. Nick Folk C/SA 11.40 10.703 -0.697 115. Drew Whalen J/SA 12.45 11.757 -0.693 116. Jack Zimmerman B/SA 11.25 10.558 -0.692 117. Michael Iacono A/SA 11.00 10.310 -0.690 118. Johnny Diekema C/SA 11.40 10.711 -0.689 119. Ken Vaughn C/S 11.35 10.679 -0.671 120. Jason McCormack A/S 10.95 10.282 -0.668 121. Mitch Truman E/SA 11.70 11.050 -0.650 122. Tommy Turner O/S 13.10 12.456 -0.644 123. Jennifer McCormack K/SA 12.65 12.007 -0.643 124. Tim Tosto C/S 11.35 10.715 -0.635 125. Rosalyn Gresens O/S 13.10 12.469 -0.631 126. David Forbes D/SA 11.55 10.927 -0.623 127. Dick Kincaid B/SA 11.25 10.633 -0.617 128. Rick Rodgers AA/SA 10.60 9.983 -0.617