Lifter ? sbc Hydraulic/stocker

[brent flynn]

Same here... curious is to what you have to do on break-in on lifters/cam without using schubecks... remove inner springs? I hope when the time comes, i can get some schubecks... whats the difference between CHev and Pontiacs? is it just the Oil band? And will the stocker cam survive without schubecks and how much spring pressure will have to be sacrificed? thanks...Brent

[Alan Roehrich]

The Comp high end hydraulic lifter is okay if you're on a budget. Nitriding the cam helps, it's well worth the investment, especially on a cast core. Trend is supposed to be working on a short travel tool steel hydraulic. Performance Research Inc had one in the works as well. The tool steel lifters are not as expensive as the Smith's.

DO NOT use DLC coated lifters on a cast core camshaft. EVER.

Yes, you need to remove your inner spring for break in. Your open pressure needs to be below 300 for break in, 250 or so is better. A good 50W mineral based oil, with GM EOS additive, and careful break in is a necessity. I use a premium moly paste on the cam and lifters, and as an assembly oil, I use a mixture of Brad Penn 50W, with GM EOS, and the Comp red lube, if you need to to really stick for a while, during storage, you can mix in STP, but you have to really mix the stuff real well, or it does not work. That stuff really sticks to bearings, cams, and lifters. Just do not ever put it on rings, cylinder walls, or piston skirts.

If you are going to run high spring pressures without using the Smith's (Shubeck) style lifter, then you need to keep your idling time to a bare minimum, and keep your idle above 1200 RPM. You're not going to be able to run the real thin modern race oils either, you'll need to be running the 10W/40 at least, if not 20W/50, the thin stuff simply does not generate the hydrodynamic oil film the budget lifters require to survive. At that point, grooving the lifter bores to feed oil directly to the cam and the edge of the lifter is probably necessary.

[BlueOval Ralph]

DO NOT USE any thing with MOLY in it when you have DLC coatings it (moly) will attack the DLC.

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

The Comp high end hydraulic lifter is okay if you're on a budget. Nitriding the cam helps, it's well worth the investment, especially on a cast core. Trend is supposed to be working on a short travel tool steel hydraulic. Performance Research Inc had one in the works as well. The tool steel lifters are not as expensive as the Smith's.

DO NOT use DLC coated lifters on a cast core camshaft. EVER.

Yes, you need to remove your inner spring for break in. Your open pressure needs to be below 300 for break in, 250 or so is better. A good 50W mineral based oil, with GM EOS additive, and careful break in is a necessity. I use a premium moly paste on the cam and lifters, and as an assembly oil, I use a mixture of Brad Penn 50W, with GM EOS, and the Comp red lube, if you need to to really stick for a while, during storage, you can mix in STP, but you have to really mix the stuff real well, or it does not work. That stuff really sticks to bearings, cams, and lifters. Just do not ever put it on rings, cylinder walls, or piston skirts.

If you are going to run high spring pressures without using the Smith's (Shubeck) style lifter, then you need to keep your idling time to a bare minimum, and keep your idle above 1200 RPM. You're not going to be able to run the real thin modern race oils either, you'll need to be running the 10W/40 at least, if not 20W/50, the thin stuff simply does not generate the hydrodynamic oil film the budget lifters require to survive. At that point, grooving the lifter bores to feed oil directly to the cam and the edge of the lifter is probably necessary.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

DO NOT USE any thing with MOLY in it when you have DLC coatings it (moly) will attack the DLC.

Interesting, since the vast majority of racing oils now contain a fair amount of molydisulfide additives.

I have had various DLC coating applicators tell me not to use certain motor oils, but they've never said anything about moly disulfide in the oil, and have in fact suggested oils with a fair amount of moly disulfide in them.


That's certainly a subject that requires a lot more investigation. I look at DLC coating as being problematic, at best, it often appears to create almost as many problems as it seems to solve.

[BlueOval Ralph]

You have a PM

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Interesting, since the vast majority of racing oils now contain a fair amount of molydisulfide additives.

I have had various DLC coating applicators tell me not to use certain motor oils, but they've never said anything about moly disulfide in the oil, and have in fact suggested oils with a fair amount of moly disulfide in them.


That's certainly a subject that requires a lot more investigation. I look at DLC coating as being problematic, at best, it often appears to create almost as many problems as it seems to solve.

[Glenn Briglio]

Why is everybody trying to reinvent the wheel? Do the Smith lifters work? Yes they do and for the price of a new engine it's cheap insurance.

[ron mattson]

Do Smith lifters work? yes they do, and they also fail occasionally and when they do
it costs you a new engine. The ceramic puck is like grinding compound when they
fail and break apart. It may not even be the lifters fault, you could break a rocker and
start the process, all i know is it costs a lot when it happens.

[Rick Leininger Jr.]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

DO NOT use DLC coated lifters on a cast core camshaft. EVER.

Why is that?

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Rick Leininger Jr.

Why is that?

After working with several people who had the DLC fail on tool steel lifters, when used on cast iron core camshafts, I spent a few hours speaking with several DLC applicators, including three who coat tool steel lifters for various vendors. Every single one of them stated without reservation that their DLC coating was completely incompatible with cast iron camshafts. Their position is that the rough abrasive nature of cast iron will always cause the DLC coating to "spall".

One of the DLC applicators said that it was possible to run DLC on tool steel lifters against a cast iron core camshaft, IF you also coated the camshaft, and used certain brands of oil. They wanted $1500 to coat one camshaft and one set of lifters. They refused to offer any sort of warranty that it would actually work. One of their representatives did however claim that there would be a gain of 30HP in a flat tappet Stock Eliminator engine from coating both the camshaft and the lifters.

There are some people who are running DLC coated lifters on cast iron camshafts, you will always find some people who manage to do things that do not normally work. However, when the people who apply the coating to the lifters, and charge $400 or more to do so, tell you that using it against cast iron is a recipe for disaster, and failures are common, proceed at your own risk.

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

After working with several people who had the DLC fail on tool steel lifters, when used on cast iron core camshafts, I spent a few hours speaking with several DLC applicators, including three who coat tool steel lifters for various vendors. Every single one of them stated without reservation that their DLC coating was completely incompatible with cast iron camshafts. Their position is that the rough abrasive nature of cast iron will always cause the DLC coating to "spall".

One of the DLC applicators said that it was possible to run DLC on tool steel lifters against a cast iron core camshaft, IF you also coated the camshaft, and used certain brands of oil. They wanted $1500 to coat one camshaft and one set of lifters. They refused to offer any sort of warranty that it would actually work. One of their representatives did however claim that there would be a gain of 30HP in a flat tappet Stock Eliminator engine from coating both the camshaft and the lifters.

There are some people who are running DLC coated lifters on cast iron camshafts, you will always find some people who manage to do things that do not normally work. However, when the people who apply the coating to the lifters, and charge $400 or more to do so, tell you that using it against cast iron is a recipe for disaster, and failures are common, proceed at your own risk.

I've got a few piles of scrap parts that will verif this. Btw little flakes of DLC coating will wreak havoc on bearings.