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Old 11-05-2011, 07:16 AM   #81
69Cobra
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lee View Post
Exactly what I was told...5-6 years ago...when I was running 10.50 - 10.60's in D/S...by those that were 3 tenths slower than me.
It's almost funny. You guys will scream about roller rockers but not one of you are screaming about $850 BBC rockers with 9/16" studs or $500 to $850 Tool steel or Schubeck / Smith lifters. And the $950+ billet steel cam cores on 50mm or 55mm journals are silently ignored.
Maybe, just maybe, those with the exotic stuff, don't want the little guy that can't afford the trick stuff to "catch up" with the allowance of roller rockers on their $89 lifters and $150 camshafts?
Any of you break a rocker in eliminations at a NHRA national event? I have. Lucky it was my bye run into the semi-finals. Had there been somebody in the other lane, I would not have made it to the finals. And lucky I had my bucket of spares with me too. My runner up finish was over $5,000 in winnings. I don't think $279 rockers sound like a lot of money when stamped rockers breaking can keep you out of the next round.
And I'm sorry, but NHRA didn't allow crate motor factory Super Stockers in Stock 30 years ago either.
Allowing standard $279 Crane Gold type rockers in Stock is actually good for the little guy. And so are a set of solid lifters with EDM hole oiling for around $89 over the $850 composite lifters and $950 billet cams.
I would agree. Not to mention, everybody is talking about the added expense of roller rockers. But just how much has the stamped steel rocker costed everybody that broke them. Because normally when you break a rocker you have other issues as well, especially if you are running the compsite type lifters. I'm sure that a stamped steel rocker has costed more than one person a complete engine. The rocker breaks then the compsite lifter also breaks at the same time due to not being controlled at the cam. Then you have all that junk going through everything. All from a stamped steel rocker. Now its not the rockers fault. They weren't designed to run at 230# on the seat and 600# open pressure at 8000rpms so. What do you do?
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Old 11-05-2011, 11:05 AM   #82
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

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Originally Posted by 69Cobra View Post
Just making conversation. No disrespect intended
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No, it is not the defining question.

You forgot several questions.

Does it change the character and spirit of the class? Yes, But so do CJ's, DP's and COPO's

Does it open up the potential for cheating?No more than it is already. Lift is still measured at the valve.

Does it further escalate the RPM range?It probably will.

Does it merely change the name of the part which breaks?To be continued

Add roller rockers to the class. Then the only real difference between Stock Eliminator for 2012 and Super Stock of 1985 is roller cams and lifters, and the intake.Head work, Radiator, Seats, rear chassis, Throught the firewall cages (don't know if that goes back to '85 or not). But its not 1969 or 1985 anymore.
None taken.

I'll address your points below.

Just because they have cars in our class that do not belong, it doesn't mean we need to make it worse. Doesn't matter what year it is, either, that's no excuse to keep screwing up the class.

I can do things with a roller rocker that cannot be done with a factory rocker. Especially with the advent of CNC machining being common. You can build the rocker to give the correct lift at peak lift and still do all sorts of things to the lift curve. I'm not going to go into that with anyone, I'll just say you should take a look at the old Crane "quick lift" rockers, or what ever they used to call them. There are other things that can be done, I won't let those secrets out either. Let's just say I had a long talk this week with three guys who know way more than I do, and all three agreed. They've got about 120 years experience going fast and setting records between them.

Sure it will, we'll have stockers turning as much or more RPM that Super Stock cars turned 20 years ago. But stockers are limited to heavy pistons and rods, and factory cranks, Super Stock is not.. Sounds like a good recipe for disaster to me. Some engines that can't stand the RPM may fall behind.

Stock is not allowed to have radiators that are not original size for the body, nor to have radiators that are not made of the original material. You can't put an aluminum radiator in a 69 Camaro for example.

Stock is not allowed to have through the firewall roll cage bars.

Stock currently requires original seats, I'm not sure it's a great idea given we're approaching 135 MPH with traditional combinations in fast classes.

Stock has an open valve job rule I already mentioned, not a good idea, but not a reason to add to the escalation.

Stock is not allowed to modify the rear frame other than connecting the roll cage.


The solution to breaking parts is not to keep asking for more aftermarket parts. The solution is to find out how to stop breaking that part. Every combination has limits, when you reach the limits, that's it, either change combinations, or switch to Super Stock. Otherwise, Stock Eliminator will BE Super Stock before long.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:09 PM   #83
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

Then NHRA needs to have the roller rocker defined with NHRA approved parts. Just like they have now. No custom made rockers. And the rockers need to be approved parts that have not been modified. Just like NHRA approved pistons. And rockers are easy to tech. Easier than pistons.

Look, anybody that is hell bent on finding that extra .001 to .01 is going to find it. Legally or not. That same guy that is the fastest in his class with stock rockers is most likely going to be the fastest in the class with roller rockers.
I'm just encouraging something that will make it less costly & less maintenance for the rest. And if one is happy with their OEM rockers, keep them.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:10 PM   #84
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lee View Post
Exactly what I was told...5-6 years ago...when I was running 10.50 - 10.60's in D/S...by those that were 3 tenths slower than me.
It's almost funny. You guys will scream about roller rockers but not one of you are screaming about $850 BBC rockers with 9/16" studs or $500 to $850 Tool steel or Schubeck / Smith lifters. And the $950+ billet steel cam cores on 50mm or 55mm journals are silently ignored.
Maybe, just maybe, those with the exotic stuff, don't want the little guy that can't afford the trick stuff to "catch up" with the allowance of roller rockers or their $89 lifters and $150 camshafts?
Any of you break a rocker in eliminations at a NHRA national event? I have. Lucky it was my bye run into the semi-finals. Had there been somebody in the other lane, I would not have made it to the finals. And lucky I had my bucket of spares with me too. My runner up finish was over $5,000 in winnings. I don't think $279 rockers sound like a lot of money when stamped rockers breaking can keep you out of the next round.
And I'm sorry, but NHRA didn't allow crate motor factory Super Stockers in Stock 30 years ago either.
Allowing standard $279 Crane Gold type rockers in Stock is actually good for the little guy. And so are a set of solid lifters with EDM hole oiling for around $89 over the $850 composite lifters and $950 billet cams.
Great post!
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:49 PM   #85
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

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Originally Posted by Jeff Lee View Post
Then NHRA needs to have the roller rocker defined with NHRA approved parts. Just like they have now. No custom made rockers. And the rockers need to be approved parts that have not been modified. Just like NHRA approved pistons. And rockers are easy to tech. Easier than pistons.

Look, anybody that is hell bent on finding that extra .001 to .01 is going to find it. Legally or not. That same guy that is the fastest in his class with stock rockers is most likely going to be the fastest in the class with roller rockers.
I'm just encouraging something that will make it less costly & less maintenance for the rest. And if one is happy with their OEM rockers, keep them.
With CNC machinery, you can make an aluminum roller rocker that looks just like any other aluminum roller rocker, including an "approved" rocker, modify the geometry, mark it and anodize it to look like the approved part, and the only way to find it is not the approved part is with a fixture made to check that specific approved part.

With CNC equipment as common as it now is, it is not even expensive to make the cheated up rockers. The rest of the parts are commonly available.

What do you think the chances of NHRA making or buying checking fixtures for 2 dozen different rocker arms and taking them to every event is? Or the idea that they're going to procure 7 copies of each approved part and haul them around to every race?

The idea that "you can keep your stock style rocker if you want to" doesn't hold a drop of water, not if you want to remain competitive. If the roller rocker raises the operating range of your competition, you have to run that RPM just like he does if you don't want to get beat.

People going fast are not just going to bolt on a set of roller rocker arms and call it a day. This is not "one part, that solves breakage for some people". Rocker arms are one part of a complete valvetrain package. Change rocker arms, and you change camshafts and other parts to go along with the rockers, unless you want to get left behind.

The fast guys will completely reevaluate their cams, springs, valve job, valves, and pushrods, in order to take advantage of the change. So instead of changing a set of rockers at the cost of $300 or so, you're now looking at a new cam, $200 and up, a new valve job that may cost you $1000, new valves that could cost $500, and new springs for $300. Your new roller rockers just went from $300 to at least $2300 if you want to stay competitive.

Yes, roller rocker arms are going to save you money. So long as you just change rocker arms, and you don't care about making the rest of the valvetrain work with them to remain competitive.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:56 PM   #86
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich View Post
None taken.

I'll address your points below.

Just because they have cars in our class that do not belong, it doesn't mean we need to make it worse. Doesn't matter what year it is, either, that's no excuse to keep screwing up the class.Agree.

I can do things with a roller rocker that cannot be done with a factory rocker. Especially with the advent of CNC machining being common. You can build the rocker to give the correct lift at peak lift and still do all sorts of things to the lift curve. I'm not going to go into that with anyone, I'll just say you should take a look at the old Crane "quick lift" rockers, or what ever they used to call them. There are other things that can be done, I won't let those secrets out either. Let's just say I had a long talk this week with three guys who know way more than I do, and all three agreed. They've got about 120 years experience going fast and setting records between them.Interesting. I would like to learn or understand more of that.

Sure it will, we'll have stockers turning as much or more RPM that Super Stock cars turned 20 years ago. But stockers are limited to heavy pistons and rods, and factory cranks, Super Stock is not.. Sounds like a good recipe for disaster to me. Some engines that can't stand the RPM may fall behind.

Stock is not allowed to have radiators that are not original size for the body, nor to have radiators that are not made of the original material. You can't put an aluminum radiator in a 69 Camaro for example.

Stock is not allowed to have through the firewall roll cage bars.

Stock currently requires original seats, I'm not sure it's a great idea given we're approaching 135 MPH with traditional combinations in fast classes.Agree as well.

Stock has an open valve job rule I already mentioned, not a good idea, but not a reason to add to the escalation.

Stock is not allowed to modify the rear frame other than connecting the roll cage.


The solution to breaking parts is not to keep asking for more aftermarket parts. The solution is to find out how to stop breaking that part. Every combination has limits, when you reach the limits, that's it, either change combinations, or switch to Super Stock. Otherwise, Stock Eliminator will BE Super Stock before long.Point well taken.
I truely believe that alot of these rule changes in stock from the open duration on the cams to valve jobs to any springs and spring pressures are due to the lack of qualified techs to police these rules. Policing rocker arms is not an issue obviously but I think all the other rules have just lead to this as the week link for now. Which is what you are saying.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:15 PM   #87
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich View Post
With CNC machinery, you can make an aluminum roller rocker that looks just like any other aluminum roller rocker, including an "approved" rocker, modify the geometry, mark it and anodize it to look like the approved part, and the only way to find it is not the approved part is with a fixture made to check that specific approved part.

With CNC equipment as common as it now is, it is not even expensive to make the cheated up rockers. The rest of the parts are commonly available.

What do you think the chances of NHRA making or buying checking fixtures for 2 dozen different rocker arms and taking them to every event is? Or the idea that they're going to procure 7 copies of each approved part and haul them around to every race?

The idea that "you can keep your stock style rocker if you want to" doesn't hold a drop of water, not if you want to remain competitive. If the roller rocker raises the operating range of your competition, you have to run that RPM just like he does if you don't want to get beat.

People going fast are not just going to bolt on a set of roller rocker arms and call it a day. This is not "one part, that solves breakage for some people". Rocker arms are one part of a complete valvetrain package. Change rocker arms, and you change camshafts and other parts to go along with the rockers, unless you want to get left behind.

The fast guys will completely reevaluate their cams, springs, valve job, valves, and pushrods, in order to take advantage of the change. So instead of changing a set of rockers at the cost of $300 or so, you're now looking at a new cam, $200 and up, a new valve job that may cost you $1000, new valves that could cost $500, and new springs for $300. Your new roller rockers just went from $300 to at least $2300 if you want to stay competitive.

Yes, roller rocker arms are going to save you money. So long as you just change rocker arms, and you don't care about making the rest of the valvetrain work with them to remain competitive.
Now I'm just trying to learn here. If you just change your stock ratio rocker to a roller rocker of the same ratio why would you want to change cams, valves and valve jobs? I would think the springs should go your way. With the roller rockers being lighter you should gain more controlable spring pressure for the valve, right? Now if you change to a faster ratio rocker then I can see having to change the over all cam lift because your faster ratio rocker just added lift at the valve. But I would think that is not the intent here.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:23 PM   #88
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

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Originally Posted by 69Cobra View Post
But I would think that is not the intent here.
After I read my post I see that even tho this will not be the intent. This is what you are talking about as far as opening things up for more cheating. A faster ratio rocker will get to max lift faster which is like adding more duration, maybe? Which is why you would also be changing springs with the cam. But I still have not figured out why you would change valves and valve jobs "Thinkin' thinkin' thinkin' and I aint even got a bucket on my head"
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:28 PM   #89
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

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Originally Posted by 69Cobra View Post
I truely believe that alot of these rule changes in stock from the open duration on the cams to valve jobs to any springs and spring pressures are due to the lack of qualified techs to police these rules. Policing rocker arms is not an issue obviously but I think all the other rules have just lead to this as the week link for now. Which is what you are saying.
Well, that is part of what I'm saying. They've kept opening the rules and escalating the cost over the years until Stock Eliminator is already far beyond the intent and spirit of the class.

Policing rocker arms will become an issue as soon as you allow aftermarket roller rocker arms in the class. The question will be whether or not NHRA bothers to address the issue fully and completely. For the answer to that, look at how limited tech inspection has become at the vast majority of NHRA events.

I'm really not going to go in to who it was I talked to, nor the changes possible with roller rocker arms. I'll just say that it absolutely will drive the RPM range up, again, and they will create breakage that is not now happening, whether it will be valvetrain breakage or other failures due to higher RPM ranges depends on several factors, and the combination being considered. It also will certainly drive the cost to remain competitive much higher than a simple set of $300 roller rocker arms and possibly a new set of $100 rocker arm studs.

Let's just make this plain and simple. A racer has reached the point where he is breaking rocker arms, and can no longer continue to increase the RPM range he runs and the valvespring pressure required to run there. So he's reached a limit. Give him roller rocker arms. Now, do you really think he's not going to go get a new set of valvesprings , turn another 1000 RPM, and start looking at what he needs to do in order to get more duration in his camshaft in order to turn even more RPM? Of course he's going to make all of those changes, if he wants to go fast and be competitive.

A real racer will always push the limits. Replace the part that breaks, and he'll go find a way to break even more parts. The new replacement part will always create the need for new parts to go with it, and the opportunity to buy new parts to take advantage of the latest rule change.

Every time you allow something like this, it creates the need to spend even more money for other parts to go with it, and further increases the operating range and parts breakage.

Just look at what has happened to Super Stock. We're now running 9,000 RPM, with belt drives, shaft rockers, huge roller lifters, valve springs with 1000 pounds open pressure and 400 pounds seat pressure, titanium retainers, massive camshafts with as much as 0.900" lift at the valve, and all sorts of other parts that were seen only in Pro Stock and Competition Eliminator just 20 years ago. Most of that was brought on by allowing ported an polished heads, because NHRA did not want to be bothered with stopping them. Is that where we want to take Stock Eliminator?
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:37 PM   #90
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Default Re: Roller Rockers in Stock

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Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich View Post
Well, that is part of what I'm saying. They've kept opening the rules and escalating the cost over the years until Stock Eliminator is already far beyond the intent and spirit of the class.

Policing rocker arms will become an issue as soon as you allow aftermarket roller rocker arms in the class. The question will be whether or not NHRA bothers to address the issue fully and completely. For the answer to that, look at how limited tech inspection has become at the vast majority of NHRA events.

I'm really not going to go in to who it was I talked to, nor the changes possible with roller rocker arms. I'll just say that it absolutely will drive the RPM range up, again, and they will create breakage that is not now happening, whether it will be valvetrain breakage or other failures due to higher RPM ranges depends on several factors, and the combination being considered. It also will certainly drive the cost to remain competitive much higher than a simple set of $300 roller rocker arms and possibly a new set of $100 rocker arm studs.

Let's just make this plain and simple. A racer has reached the point where he is breaking rocker arms, and can no longer continue to increase the RPM range he runs and the valvespring pressure required to run there. So he's reached a limit. Give him roller rocker arms. Now, do you really think he's not going to go get a new set of valvesprings , turn another 1000 RPM, and start looking at what he needs to do in order to get more duration in his camshaft in order to turn even more RPM? Of course he's going to make all of those changes, if he wants to go fast and be competitive.

A real racer will always push the limits. Replace the part that breaks, and he'll go find a way to break even more parts. The new replacement part will always create the need for new parts to go with it, and the opportunity to buy new parts to take advantage of the latest rule change.

Every time you allow something like this, it creates the need to spend even more money for other parts to go with it, and further increases the operating range and parts breakage.

Just look at what has happened to Super Stock. We're now running 9,000 RPM, with belt drives, shaft rockers, huge roller lifters, valve springs with 1000 pounds open pressure and 400 pounds seat pressure, titanium retainers, massive camshafts with as much as 0.900" lift at the valve, and all sorts of other parts that were seen only in Pro Stock and Competition Eliminator just 20 years ago. Most of that was brought on by allowing ported an polished heads, because NHRA did not want to be bothered with stopping them. Is that where we want to take Stock Eliminator?
All very good points. You've personally have taken me from wanting roller rockers in stock to not so much. I guess we'll have to wait for the NHRA rule book to know which way to go here.
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