NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?

[Rollins_2241]

Current all-told expenses for an NHRA Lucas Oil weekend are about $70K for the track operator, between sanctioning fee (around $15K), payout, staff, insurance, lights, and amortized expenses (but not including real estate).

The "bogey" to make a profit is therefore probably between 380-400 cars depending on the track. Current car counts vary between 280 to 420, depending on weather, date, and location. It's not a low risk proposition even with the current payout.

And there may be fewer contingency sponsors, but I've noticed a higher percentage of them pay quickly.

[Michael Beard]

The last few posts are dead-on. File race promotion under "You think you know, but you have no idea." A partner and I promoted a big money Footbrake race Thanksgiving weekend, so I know first hand what track rentals cost, *and* how many thousands of dollars you can rack up doing promotion for an entire year, along with all of the little extras we did for the racers. Our payouts are some of the strongest anywhere. There's a reason why we've chosen the business name "Loose Rocker Promotions". Most people in their right mind wouldn't work for 10-12 months on a single event and pay out what we do. Also, something that we do is offer purse incentives. If we have 200+ cars in any race, we DOUBLE the rate the round money increases. (FYI, we had 191 entries on the first day last year, and I'm confident that we'll hit the bonus level this year! ...if gas prices don't go nutty) And payout percentages change depending on car count. Our two $5K events payout percentages were 10% different.... and that came out to a difference of $4,500. This is not a game. This is real money, and until you put YOUR butt on the line, it's not as 'real' to you. You can go from making good money to losing everything very quickly. What's the incentive for a track or promoter to increase their risk exposure massively compared to the 'safe' profit of a test n' tune?

If it were easy, everyone would do it. The US Class Nationals was a slam dunk, right? Why hasn't it been done since? I know, I've looked at the numbers hard, and at one time had a date and location already in talks with a track. There's a reason... and y'all already touched on it. I sincerely hope that the Combo in the Hills is huge this year, as it deserves to be. Many people didn't support THAT race last year, yet we think that more cars are going to magically materialize at Divisional races on either side of the fence if they pay more money?

That being said... yah... R/U this weekend in a short race, and will still be in the hole. Coming away with the points lead with a gold card and TOC qualifying position on the line is the only justification for going. (Well, that and both Ralph Hester's BBQ and Ron Ortiz's steak, wings, and... um... moss.) My same performance (or lack thereof, as it turns out) would earn me $125 at an LODRS, far worse than my R/U take. Realistically, Orlando and Gainesville make no financial sense for me, particularly with this being my busiest time of the year. With 45+ customer projects in line right now, I can't afford two straight weeks of 3-day work weeks. I can race locally for two $2K's this weekend and two $3K's next weekend. (and probably won't even go this weekend... need to work and catch up.)

[Toby Lang]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

My same performance (or lack thereof, as it turns out) would earn me $125 at an LODRS, far worse than my R/U take.

Well, to me an R/U is an R/U no matter how many cars there are. So, an R/U at a D2 LODRS would have earned you $500 ($600 at a D1 event.)

I guess the question is then, how much would you have earned last weekend if it were a six round race and you went out in the third round?


-Toby

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Toby Lang

Well, to me an R/U is an R/U no matter how many cars there are. So, an R/U at a D2 LODRS would have earned you $500 ($600 at a D1 event.)

While that's a positive attitude I appreciate, it is not statistically correct. I won (if you want to call it that) 3 rounds to get the R/U ($500). My chances of winning just 3 consecutive rounds is nearly double that of winning 5 rounds to R/U. Every round more that you have to go, you have to add a factor of your round-win percentage. The more rounds in a race, the less chance you have of winning it.

I guess the question is then, how much would you have earned last weekend if it were a six round race and you went out in the third round?

To be honest, I don't know that I would've traveled 13hrs if I thought it was going to be a 6-round race. Historically, I knew that Super Stock at this event was likely to be a 3-round or 4-round race tops, which made the risk of the significant travel expenses worth the gamble, particularly with the race being a Wild Card claim and Sunday being a TOC Qualifier with National Event level contingency. It certainly wouldn't be a cakewalk with the quality of drivers that comprised the limited field, but the odds still play out favorably. While the weekend could've turned out better, the R/U kept the losses at a minimum, and I come out with a 35 point lead in Div. 2 SS, helping me toward a TOC Qualifier spot and potentially a Div. Championship which would be another $1,500 and a Gold Card. This is one of the few years that I haven't had a gold card, something that would've turned this weekend's venture into the plus side.

That being said, if you wish to compare round money only...

IHRA Div. 2
3rd round loss = $80 (-$55 less than entry)
4th round loss = $120 (-$15 less than entry, assuming 17+ cars)
5th round loss = $160 (+$25 more than entry)

NHRA Div. 2
3rd round loss = $100 (-$60 less than entry)
4th round loss = $125 (-$35 less than entry)
5th round loss = $150 (-$10 less than entry)

...not a *huge* difference in the big scheme of things, but the travel expenses and days off work make NHRA racing significantly more expensive. NHRA's contingency program is significantly better, which is one of the primary reasons why I will be running some.

[Toby Lang]

So, I guess the lower the car count the better and since the Jeg's All-Star race is only three rounds, that should be a breeze compared to a normal six or seven round race.

There's a flaw in the D2 payout schedule (there is no 7th round loser, 7th round loser is called R/U in S/SS.) So, your chart should look like this, IMO:

NHRA Div. 2
3rd round loss = $125 (-$35 less than entry)
4th round loss = $150 (-$10 less than entry)
5th round loss = $200 (+$40 more than entry)


-Toby

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Toby Lang

So, I guess the lower the car count the better and since the Jeg's All-Star race is only three rounds, that should be a breeze compared to a normal six or seven round race.

-=sigh=- You know what I was getting at. I'm sorry for not getting into every single permutation and combination of likely participants qualifying orders and head-to-head matchups AND I specifically said that the shorter field did not indicate a cakewalk. It still stands to reason in most circumstances that it's easier to win a 4 round race than a 6 round race.

There's a flaw in the D2 payout schedule

Has that been verified? (or should the Rnd 7 line simply be dropped?) At first glance the numbers looked the same as Div. 4.

Okay Mr. Beard since you have done this what is the solution? Can't classes get their own sponsors? Would that help the payouts with out hurting the tracks cut.

- We're not going to solve the world's (class racing) problems in an afternoon on a forum. I have a large list of things that could potentially help the sport, which have been done in the past, continue to implemented, or are advocated for the future. In many cases, the necessary parties are unwilling or unmotivated to make the short term sacrifices or long term commitments to see things through for the big picture. Some of the solutions are right under our nose.

- Yes classes could get sponsors, and obviously this could help all concerned. We have a pretty fair number of marketing partners for our Fall Footbrake Frenzy and American Doorslammer Nationals events, and you see S/SS Combo associations retain sponsors. I believe the biggest issues here are:
1) It's possible that there is an exclusivity issue with Lucas Oil / Summit Racing Equipment being the title sponsors that would preclude a naming rights sponsor on an individual class. But even barring that, you have a lot of companies already involved in contingency programs. What is their return on investment for additional sponsorship?
2) What extra value is the sanctioning body/track/promoter/event providing to these sponsors (existing and potential?)

[Bret Kepner]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

My chances of winning just 3 consecutive rounds is nearly double that of winning 5 rounds to R/U. Every round more that you have to go, you have to add a factor of your round-win percentage. The more rounds in a race, the less chance you have of winning it.

Beard is one of only a handful of racers who accurately understand this point. It is THE definition of what we do and how we do it.

[Toby Lang]

Michael,

I understand what you mean, I was just being a smart ***.

So, you like the low car counts, right? Is that part of the reason you don't run more NHRA races?

About the D2 payouts, that is just my guess of how it should be. Mary Meints posted a thread about it earlier:

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=38780

Maybe she will update that thread when she finds out.


-Toby

[Michael Beard]

So, you like the low car counts, right? Is that part of the reason you don't run more NHRA races?

Do they provide a higher likilihood of return on investment, yes. Do I LIKE low car count races? NO. It's not sustainable and not good for the long term of our sport. Although it stands to reason that if everybody went to low car count races... they wouldn't BE low car count races in the first place! If I can improve my chances and add support races that need it at the same time, all the better.

And as I've already explained innumerable times over the years, and as recently as two posts ago in this thread, the reason I don't run more NHRA races is "the travel expenses and days off work make NHRA racing significantly more expensive," which I detailed last year with specific comparisons of chasing a Div'l and/or World Championship. And as I have also stated over the years, I don't agree with some of NHRA's policy decisions, and my choice has been to express my opinions about issues, and then if I am still dissatisfied and have other viable options, I will vote with my feet and run elsewhere. Until recently, I have had no need to run NHRA, as my schedule has had more than enough options for me to race 37+ weekends a year, usually multiple times per weekend. Due to the current climate of contingency postings and event exposure, I now need to start working in NHRA events in order to maintain or improve value for my sponsors.

I *had* planned on going to Orlando and Gainesville, but the first quarter of the year is always my busiest of the year, and like last year, I can't afford anymore 3-day work weeks. When I get moved to Ohio, maybe the longer winters will make my racing and work schedule mesh better.

[skills]

Okay Mr. Beard since you have done this what is the solution? Can't classes get their own sponsors? Would that help the payouts with out hurting the tracks cut. In the end owning a track is a business so a healthy financially stable race track is good for everybody.