wrong spec submitted by MOPAR - Page 4

Hemi Moose · 05-02-2012, 10:30 PM

I was just thinking, does anyone know which Drag Pak Challenger it was...the Hemi or V-10 that got tagged?

Andys dad · 05-02-2012, 10:53 PM

Yes it was the V10

BTW - all of the V10s were/are really nice cars from MOPAR

I hope it turns out to be as good of an investment as it has been fun

Ron

SS Engine Guy · 05-04-2012, 03:22 AM

Trusting the supplier to do the right thing is the wrong thing to do. The builder should always verify what can and can't be done with tech. Usually in the form of a letter. (however, in the past few years, even a letter isn't worth the paper its written on). There lies the problem. Tech has been over ruled so many times that its all BS. I have freshened many "legal" pieces that had the proper # as per tech and were built totally different than the spec or intention of the rule. Its not hard to stamp letters/numbers/logos on parts.
Like Alan, I have had parts held for long periods of time, finally approved and then notified weeks and even months later that the approval was void. I have made it right by re-doing parts, no charge, even to the point of buying the newly re-defined part at my own expence along with machine work and other parts that were necessary to make this piece "legal" and make it work correctly. Then watch what I was NOT allowed to do go right thru teardown without a word said.
As much engineering and design as was supposed to be done on these super car engines (Ford,Mopar and probably Chev.) there is no excuse for any of these people to be dq'ed. Except for the fact that there is apparantly a lack of knowledge as to the amount of blueprint time required to build a truely fast and completely legal S/SS combination under the rules and guidelines set forth by the santioning bodies. Also, a lack of communication between manufacturers and tech. The attitude of building a regular car seems to be: put it out there and we will work on the problems as they arise. Any dealer tech can tell you stories about the amount of tech bullitins, recalls, replace it free only if the customer complains enough, etc...

Sorry for the long post but I know what its like trying to get a straight answer from aftermarket suppliers and from tech depts. Also, I didn't know there were different ways of measuring the diameter of a valve.

dwydendorf · 05-04-2012, 09:51 AM

I was involved with the teardown of the Fords last year and in their case, part of the problem involves the way the specs are sent to NHRA in the 21st century. Now all the automakers have converted to metric (remember that?) and all the specs have to be converted to Inches. Stop and think about how much effort has to go into sending in the tech specs now, as opposed to how it used to be. It is not hard to understand why the car manufacturers don't send in all the specs for every car they make. Sometimes conversions are miscalculated and the problems begin. Most of the racers with the new cars are not doing their own engine work, so it is easy to understand how problems can compound.. How about giving everyone involved a little slack. It is not as simple nowadays to just send NHRA the specs as it used to be. Maybe it is time for NHRA tech to get in the 21st century and use the new metric specs. How many would like to see this?

novassdude · 05-04-2012, 02:42 PM

They should be able to send in the specs what ever way they want. i know on my didgital calipers it is a simple press of the button to switch to metric.

Alan Roehrich · 05-06-2012, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwydendorf

I was involved with the teardown of the Fords last year and in their case, part of the problem involves the way the specs are sent to NHRA in the 21st century. Now all the automakers have converted to metric (remember that?) and all the specs have to be converted to Inches. Stop and think about how much effort has to go into sending in the tech specs now, as opposed to how it used to be. It is not hard to understand why the car manufacturers don't send in all the specs for every car they make. Sometimes conversions are miscalculated and the problems begin. Most of the racers with the new cars are not doing their own engine work, so it is easy to understand how problems can compound.. How about giving everyone involved a little slack. It is not as simple nowadays to just send NHRA the specs as it used to be. Maybe it is time for NHRA tech to get in the 21st century and use the new metric specs. How many would like to see this?

By all means. They got 50-100HP worth of "slack" when they got factored. Poor OEM's, by all means, we need to cut them more slack for getting parts approved and getting the correct spec in the class guide. They should apply the same standard to the blueprint guide as they did the factors in the class guide. Anything within 100HP or so is plenty close, so why bother with correct blueprint specs. And I'm all heartbroke over that work load those poor guys are suffering, some of them haven't put a street legal car in the class guide for 4 years. I mean, damn, it's pretty tough to get the correct specs in the class guide for 1/2 a dozen engines. Heaven forbid they have to convert metric to inches, too! Oh, the humanity.

I suggest you go try to sell a product or service to an OEM using the crappy loose standards they've been using to submit specs to the class guide. I hope you don't care anything about staying in business, keeping your house, or eating.

Yeah, cry me a river, those poor, poor, destitute and over worked OEM's.

David Barton · 05-06-2012, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andys dad

I know Arrow built these as good as any engine builder out there - they just did not know MOPAR made a mistake - they used the valve which was identifed to go in the heads - stock size for a Gen IV viper engine - The TI sheet was submitted to NHRA after the engine building started - the valves used were appearently incorrectly measured by MOPAR engineering - used a blue print to figure out how to do it - LMFAO

Ron

It sounds like Arrow is not up to speed on how racing NHRA Stock Eliminator works. I don't doubt they know how to build engines, but they really should have reviewed the spec sheets provided on NHRA's web site. Actually, they should have been one of the first people to point out the mistake if there was one.

I can guarantee you that if I built the engine I would have checked the spec sheet instead of blaming Mopar. Sure, maybe they submitted the wrong info, but the fact is that the rules were in writing and that is what we go by in NHRA.

David Barton · 05-06-2012, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irv Johns

In my case there were no piston specs for the 392 till March of this year. My engine was built with Diamond pistons as per NHRA specified with NHRA Logo and Diamond pistons engraved on top (early Drag Pak pistons had no engraving on top that was added after the first ones went thru teardown). There was no part number or ring spec in book til this March. My engine builder only had what was available for specs last June when my engine was built. He trusted Diamond to build pistons per NHRA as they were a approved vendor.

We built a 392 last year but chose not to run it because there was no approved piston. We were told that if we ran a standard bore size it would have passed as a factory piston. But since we bored it out there was no way it would pass because there was no approved piston listed.

Andys dad · 05-06-2012, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Barton

It sounds like Arrow is not up to speed on how racing NHRA Stock Eliminator works. I don't doubt they know how to build engines, but they really should have reviewed the spec sheets provided on NHRA's web site. Actually, they should have been one of the first people to point out the mistake if there was one.

I can guarantee you that if I built the engine I would have checked the spec sheet instead of blaming Mopar. Sure, maybe they submitted the wrong info, but the fact is that the rules were in writing and that is what we go by in NHRA.

OK - I will make one last comment - there was no spec sheet.........get it.......the specs were not published until after the engines were built..... I am not sure how that process worked....if I could delete this thread I would - I was only defending Dave - sorry - my humble apologies to all of you top flight engine builders who know so much more than anyone else

Ron

Tom P · 05-06-2012, 10:51 PM

Don't the OEM's usually measure differently than the total OD of the valve? I have seen the 428 CJ being called 2.06" in old Ford internal documents instead of 2.09".

05-02-2012, 10:30 PM	#31
Hemi Moose VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,824 Likes: 0 Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR I was just thinking, does anyone know which Drag Pak Challenger it was...the Hemi or V-10 that got tagged? Last edited by Hemi Moose; 05-02-2012 at 10:45 PM.

05-02-2012, 10:53 PM	#32
Andys dad VIP Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Arcadia, Ca Posts: 1,571 Likes: 48 Liked 175 Times in 78 Posts	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR Yes it was the V10 BTW - all of the V10s were/are really nice cars from MOPAR I hope it turns out to be as good of an investment as it has been fun Ron __________________ time is our most precious resource, you can always make more money but you can never make more time spend your time wisely with the ones you love - Ron Durham Last edited by Andys dad; 05-02-2012 at 11:39 PM.

05-04-2012, 03:22 AM	#33
SS Engine Guy Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: usa Posts: 256 Likes: 1 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR Trusting the supplier to do the right thing is the wrong thing to do. The builder should always verify what can and can't be done with tech. Usually in the form of a letter. (however, in the past few years, even a letter isn't worth the paper its written on). There lies the problem. Tech has been over ruled so many times that its all BS. I have freshened many "legal" pieces that had the proper # as per tech and were built totally different than the spec or intention of the rule. Its not hard to stamp letters/numbers/logos on parts. Like Alan, I have had parts held for long periods of time, finally approved and then notified weeks and even months later that the approval was void. I have made it right by re-doing parts, no charge, even to the point of buying the newly re-defined part at my own expence along with machine work and other parts that were necessary to make this piece "legal" and make it work correctly. Then watch what I was NOT allowed to do go right thru teardown without a word said. As much engineering and design as was supposed to be done on these super car engines (Ford,Mopar and probably Chev.) there is no excuse for any of these people to be dq'ed. Except for the fact that there is apparantly a lack of knowledge as to the amount of blueprint time required to build a truely fast and completely legal S/SS combination under the rules and guidelines set forth by the santioning bodies. Also, a lack of communication between manufacturers and tech. The attitude of building a regular car seems to be: put it out there and we will work on the problems as they arise. Any dealer tech can tell you stories about the amount of tech bullitins, recalls, replace it free only if the customer complains enough, etc... Sorry for the long post but I know what its like trying to get a straight answer from aftermarket suppliers and from tech depts. Also, I didn't know there were different ways of measuring the diameter of a valve.

05-04-2012, 09:51 AM	#34
dwydendorf Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: michigan Posts: 162 Likes: 251 Liked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR I was involved with the teardown of the Fords last year and in their case, part of the problem involves the way the specs are sent to NHRA in the 21st century. Now all the automakers have converted to metric (remember that?) and all the specs have to be converted to Inches. Stop and think about how much effort has to go into sending in the tech specs now, as opposed to how it used to be. It is not hard to understand why the car manufacturers don't send in all the specs for every car they make. Sometimes conversions are miscalculated and the problems begin. Most of the racers with the new cars are not doing their own engine work, so it is easy to understand how problems can compound.. How about giving everyone involved a little slack. It is not as simple nowadays to just send NHRA the specs as it used to be. Maybe it is time for NHRA tech to get in the 21st century and use the new metric specs. How many would like to see this? __________________ ss/gt 93 t-bird

05-04-2012, 02:42 PM	#35
novassdude Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: usa Posts: 751 Likes: 204 Liked 136 Times in 49 Posts	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR They should be able to send in the specs what ever way they want. i know on my didgital calipers it is a simple press of the button to switch to metric.

05-06-2012, 10:51 PM	#40
Tom P Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 707 Likes: 30 Liked 239 Times in 94 Posts	Re: wrong spec submitted by MOPAR Don't the OEM's usually measure differently than the total OD of the valve? I have seen the 428 CJ being called 2.06" in old Ford internal documents instead of 2.09".