The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS

[Ron Ortiz]

I believe what Billy and Alan is right on the money. Just one small alteration is necessary.

The imports (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and even Hyundai) need to be in there too. It still is a horsepower claim from the manufacturer in the Guide, just ask FFFord & CCChrysler.

There are way to many people that own these type of cars out there to not include them, it will increase your base by more than 15%. Hey, do you want our class to survive or not. Get real, it is 2012, this is not our little reserved sport/hobby anymore, we need to expand.

Wonder what the NeesMan could do with an Elantra 1797 cc

Ron Ortiz
U/SA #1 qualifier

[Alan Roehrich]

If you talk to the import fans, they're no more interested in Stock Eliminator or Super Stock than the other guys. They don't like the rules.

We don't need to "expand". You can't please everyone, you can't be all things to all people.

What we need to do is concentrate on making and keeping the current participants happy and keeping them racing. Getting them to race more is the real goal.

People keep trying to go outside the current group and "recruit" participants by "expanding" the class guide or liberalizing the rules. It does not work that way.

The best "recruiting" tool is a satisfied happy participant. It's just like running a business. It's cheaper, easier, and better to retain a customer than it is to replace him. That happy customer is the best tool you can ever hope to have for getting new customers. It's the same with racing. If you want class racing to survive, or more to the point, recover and thrive, treat the current racers better. Give them every reason to race more. Because that racer wanting to race more is the best possible "advertisement" to draw new racers. New people are going to be interested in class racing, because they're wanting to find out why that guy can't wait to spend his time and money on a class car and going racing.

Continually altering Stock Eliminator and Super Stock in an effort to "include" or "recruit" people who not only don't race the cars already in the class, but more to the point don't like the style of racing or the rules, is pointless and futile. You do that, and at best, you risk alienating the current participants while maybe drawing 1 in 1000 possible new participants, for a short time. At worst, you start driving away the core racers, and get nothing from those you hope to attract.

If you're selling grilled beef hamburgers and fries, and have a decent number of customers, you don't switch to tofu and turkey burgers with celery sticks, hoping to gain new business. It does not make sense. It just puts you right out of business, because those customers who came for a great burger and fries are not coming back, they're going somewhere else to get what they wanted, or they go for fried chicken or pizza. You end up with a lot of tofu, turkey, and celery. And fairly good sized helping of egg on your face.

[Alan Roehrich]

If all of that was too long, and you don't want to read it, try this;


Remember "New Coke"?


How did that work out?


Keep trying to change Stock Eliminator and Super Stock to suit people who don't race class, and you'll end up with "New Coke".

Thing is, we ain't Coca Cola, and we won't survive the mistake like they did.

[Ed Wright]

Alan is exactly right. Young people that come to look my car over at the local test n tune nights seem impressed. After talking a bit they pretty much all tell me they wouldn't want to deal with so many rules.
The ricer kids are not interested at all. NHRA had import racing at one time. 16 cars qualified over a second apart was a joke. Had wet tee shirt contests though, right? LOL

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Remember "New Coke"?
How did that work out?
Keep trying to change Stock Eliminator and Super Stock to suit people who don't race class, and you'll end up with "New Coke".

I'm not trying to change anything. What's wrong with updating the guide? Updates used to be the norm not the exception. Heck, if we should keep anything newer than 20 years old (none of those pesky LT1s) out of the guide then why don't we just go back to the old valvespring and cam rules and be done with it. I'm good with that.
The bottom line is, we're all gonna die of old age sooner than later (even you and me!). At that point I really don't give a rats butt what happens to Stock and SS. So keep younger people out and we won't exist, we keep getting older and dying and we won't either. Same end result.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

I'm not trying to change anything. What's wrong with updating the guide? Updates used to be the norm not the exception. Heck, if we should keep anything newer than 20 years old (none of those pesky LT1s) out of the guide then why don't we just go back to the old valvespring and cam rules and be done with it. I'm good with that.
The bottom line is, we're all gonna die of old age sooner than later (even you and me!). At that point I really don't give a rats butt what happens to Stock and SS. So keep younger people out and we won't exist, we keep getting older and dying and we won't either. Same end result.

I never said we shouldn't update the guide.

I'm all for U.S. production cars being added as they are produced.

But you will not bring anyone to Stock Eliminator and Super Stock by adding Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Nissan, Lexus, or Infinity. Those manufacturers couldn't care less about Stock Eliminator and Super Stock, and the guys who do race those cars don't give a damn about class racing either.

I have yet to hear anyone say "I'd come race Stock Eliminator if you'd let me race my Honda". Or any of the others. Put them in the guide and what you'll get is nothing. Except maybe a few of them whining about the rules and the cost to compete. They won't like the cost of pistons, or the approval process, or finding camshaft cores, or getting the right gear made.

If you want to race Stock Eliminator, or Super Stock, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of possible combinations in the guide. Anyone who is sitting it out because they can't race their 2011 "whatsit" because it is not in the guide is not going to race class anyway. They're not coming.

By the way, it has already been stated, by people who would know, that at the very least, it is Ford that is keeping their production street cars out of the guide. It is probably true of the others as well. I'm all for putting all their production cars in the guide.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I never said we shouldn't update the guide.

I'm all for U.S. production cars being added as they are produced.

But you will not bring anyone to Stock Eliminator and Super Stock by adding Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Nissan, Lexus, or Infinity. Those manufacturers couldn't care less about Stock Eliminator and Super Stock, and the guys who do race those cars don't give a damn about class racing either.

And I didn't say that we should put Toyota, Honda, etc. in the guide (not in this post anyway). All I said was it would be nice if FFFord, Chrysler and GM put the turbocharged small cars that they build and sell in the guide.
As far as racing one? I would do one but not out of my own pocket. I'm sure that the shops(or engineers) that came up with the the ringers that are in the guide got paid well to sort them out and I would expect nothing less.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

And I didn't say that we should put Toyota, Honda, etc. in the guide (not in this post anyway). All I said was it would be nice if FFFord, Chrysler and GM put the turbocharged small cars that they build and sell in the guide.
As far as racing one? I would do one but not out of my own pocket. I'm sure that the shops(or engineers) that came up with the the ringers that are in the guide got paid well to sort them out and I would expect nothing less.

Billy, you skipped the part of that post where I agreed with you:

By the way, it has already been stated, by people who would know, that at the very least, it is Ford that is keeping their production street cars out of the guide. It is probably true of the others as well. I'm all for putting all their production cars in the guide.

Here is the problem with foreign makes in the guide: Return on investment.

Putting those cars in the guide adds a huge amount of complexity. First, you have to develop a relationship with each OEM. Then you have to get them to give you their specs. Then you have to get them in the guide. Then you have to get them to the tech guys in the field, and get the tech guys prepared to deal with them. You're asking NHRA to spend a considerable amount of time and money. It would require them to hire more staff.

In return for that, they'll get about 0.05% increase in membership and car count. At best.

In effect, you're asking NHRA to spend at least $250K, and those foreign OEM's are not going to pony up a thin dime for NHRA.

It'll never happen.

And that is one of those rare instances where I agree with NHRA. It is not a wise investment.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I'm all for U.S. production cars being added as they are produced.

As far as that goes and I'm sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong, the last that I knew, Mustangs were being built in Mexico, Camaros were being assembled in Canada and designed in Australia, and Challengers are for all intents and purposes the last generation C-class Mercedes.

[D.Johns]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

As far as that goes and I'm sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong, the last that I knew, Mustangs were being built in Mexico, Camaros were being assembled in Canada and designed in Australia, and Challengers are for all intents and purposes the last generation C-class Mercedes.

Mustang is built in Flat Rock Michigan at the Auto Alliance manufacturing facility. Has been since 2005. It was built at dearborn from 1964-2004 at the Rouge.