It's Time to combine

rx dealer · 09-05-2012, 04:12 PM

[QUOTE=Tony Janes;344635]It is very fair, that is part of a handicap eliminator.[/QUOTE

you're right tony. I / we are being handicapped for running a stick...Luke SS 311

Tony Janes · 09-05-2012, 04:40 PM

Makes no sense to me, you do not have to run the automatic car heads up.

Mike Pearson · 09-05-2012, 05:30 PM

Don't forget some of the stick horsepower ratings are less than the same combo with an auto. Thus the index difference. At least with my combo in SS.

Jeff Lee · 09-05-2012, 07:10 PM

The reason some of the HP ratings are less for the stick cars is because less people race stick cars. It's a lot easier to be "king of the Hill" in a Stick class as the classes are so small. You may not be pushed very hard to go any faster.
The reason auto cars have higher HP ratings is because the class is inundated with automatic cars. More hot dogs with ego's equal more nips at the AHFS.

One MAJOR reason guys don't race stick cars is because they loose qualifying positions by racing a stick! Rob Youngblood can tell you how many sales he's lost because of this!

As I said in a recent post, SS/JA vs SS/J; Don Little vs. Rob Youngblood. Both seem to run comparable ET's in qualifying yet Don will qualify in the top 5 while Rob will qualify 10+ positions down the ladder. Same HP rating, same weight (or at least within a few pounds). Is that reasonable?
And some of you think this is nothing more than a bracket race so qualifying means little to you. Well, there are some of us that still adhere to the calling that this is a performance based class and qualifying higher than lower means something!

Now, I have proposed this on this board more than once. Sticks and autos should be combined. I have also proposed that points should be awarded for top 10 & #1 qualifying positions. That would encourage some of you to let loose of the throttle stops every now and again. If that were the rule, that there are points on the line, then why should there be a disparity between indexes on stick vs. auto?

I'll soon be back in D/S. Last issue of Nitro Joes (which every class racer should subscribe too!), Joe lists 8 competitors in D/S. Then look at D/SA. There's 63 in that class! Combine them and now we have 71 cars in a class and one less class. In D/S the two fast guys are Duzac & Byrd @ 10.35 each (wow!) but the two fast guys in D/SA are VanLant & Hill @ 10.51 each.
Apparently there's an advantage to the stick there. But look at C/S vs. C/SA. In C/S the two fast guys are Wenzel & McNeish @ 10.51 each but the two fast guys in C/SA are Dean & Ratcliff both @ 10.37 each. Apparently the auto has an advantage here.
In fact, I just went over all the Stock runs. Of the 25 classes from AA/S through W/S and AA/SA through AA/SA and looking at only the fastest in each class, the autos win 17-8! Stick wins in: B/S, D/S, G/S, O/S, Q/S, T/S & W/S (there are no R/S & U/S racers listed as participants). I didn't count the FWD classes.

So if your crying that the stick has a huge advantage, it just doesn't appear that way.

Combine the classes and I personally could care less how they split the Index. Take the high, take the low or split the difference. One way or the other, NHRA will say the AHFS will take care issues.

NHRA would cut 25 classes and save on trophies. I think this would also eliminate the "Stick / auto combos" which I'm still not sure what I think of that program. But that's for another thread.

More:
Of the 27 classes SHOWN:
7 are the same, stick / auto index
7 are .05 apart
6 are .10 apart
3 are .15 apart
1 IS .20 apart
2 ARE .25 apart

So in Stock at least, there's not the big gap of stick / auto indexes to be concerned about. Unless your one of the (very) few with sticks in the slowest classes.

Here's the index table:

Stock Indexes
Last Update: 9/4/2012
Class 1/4 Mile 1/8 Mile
AA/S 10.00 06.50 - Auto is SAME
A/S 10.95 07.06 - Auto is .05 SLOWER
B/S 11.20 07.21 - Auto is .15 SLOWER
C/S 11.35 07.31 - Auto is .05 SLOWER
D/S 11.50 07.39 - Auto is .05 SLOWER
E/S 11.65 07.47 - Auto is .05 SLOWER
F/S 11.80 07.57 - Auto is .05 SLOWER
G/S 11.90 07.62 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
H/S 12.00 07.68 - Auto is .15 SLOWER
I/S 12.20 07.79 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
J/S 12.35 07.89 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
K/S 12.55 08.00 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
L/S 12.70 08.08 - Auto is SAME
M/S 12.85 08.18 - Auto is SAME
N/S 12.95 08.22 - Auto is .05 SLOWER
O/S 13.10 08.32 - Auto is .05 SLOWER
P/S 13.35 08.46 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
Q/S 13.65 08.62 - Auto is .15 SLOWER
R/S 13.95 08.79 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
T/S 14.40 09.04 - Auto is SAME
U/S 14.65 09.17 - Auto is .20 SLOWER
V/S 15.25 09.51 - Auto is .25 SLOWER
W/S 16.40 10.17 - Auto is .25 SLOWER

FS/S 09.90 06.44 - HUH?
AAA/S 09.70 06.32 - Auto is SAME
BB/S 10.30 06.68 - Auto is SAME
CC/S 10.60 06.86 - Auto is SAME

Jeff Lee · 09-05-2012, 07:44 PM

Here is the Super Stock Indexes:

Super Stock Indexes
Last Update: 9/4/2012
Class 1/4 Mile 1/8 Mile
SS/AH 09.30 06.08
SS/A 09.65 06.28 - Auto is .25 QUICKER
SS/B 09.90 06.44 - Auto is SAME
SS/C 10.05 06.53 - Auto is SAME
SS/D 10.20 06.62 - Auto is SAME
SS/E 10.25 06.65 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
SS/F 10.35 06.71 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
SS/G 10.45 06.77 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
SS/H 10.50 06.80 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
SS/I 10.50 06.83 - Auto is .20 SLOWER
SS/J 10.80 06.98 - Auto is .20 SLOWER
SS/K 11.00 07.10 - Auto is .25 SLOWER
SS/L 11.25 07.24 - Auto is .20 SLOWER
SS/M 11.60 07.45 - Auto is .25 SLOWER
SS/N 11.95 07.65 - Auto is .20 SLOWER
SS/O 12.20 07.79 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
SS/P 12.50 07.97 - Auto is .15 SLOWER

GT/A 10.00 06.50 - Auto is .10 SLOWER
GT/B 10.10 06.57 - Auto is .15 SLOWER
GT/C 10.20 06.62 - Auto is .20 SLOWER
GT/D 10.35 06.71 - Auto is .15 SLOWER
GT/E 10.50 06.80 - Auto is .15 SLOWER
GT/F 10.60 06.86 - Auto is .20 SLOWER
GT/G 10.75 06.95 - Auto is .15 SLOWER
GT/H 10.85 07.01 - Auto is .20 SLOWER
GT/I 10.95 07.06 - Auto is .25 SLOWER
GT/J 11.05 07.13 - Auto is .25 SLOWER
GT/K 11.10 07.16 - Auto is .35 SLOWER
GT/L 11.30 07.27 - Auto is .25 SLOWER
GT/M 11.50 07.39 - Auto is .25 SLOWER

Of the 30 classes shown:
3 are the same, stick / auto index
6 are .10 apart
5 are .15 apart
7 are .20 apart
7 are .25 apart
1 is .35 apart
SS/AH is one class, stick & auto COMBINED.

rx dealer · 09-05-2012, 08:18 PM

Thanks Jeff very informative and proves my point...Luke SS 311

Tony Janes · 09-05-2012, 10:03 PM

None of that is going to happen"

Dyno · 09-06-2012, 02:27 PM

SS/AH is a combined auto/stick class and the sticks have the auto's covered.

Toby Lang · 09-07-2012, 02:53 PM

How about this popular argument that's used when people bring up rule changes?: You knew what the rules were when you built your car. If you want to run with the autos, put an auto in the car.

You know there are some people who put sticks in their cars to get away from heads-up races.

-Toby

09-05-2012, 04:40 PM	#2
Tony Janes Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Whittier, Ca Posts: 830 Likes: 77 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: It's Time to combine Makes no sense to me, you do not have to run the automatic car heads up. __________________ Tony Janes 7941 STK, SS

09-05-2012, 05:30 PM	#3
Mike Pearson VIP Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,417 Likes: 597 Liked 1,880 Times in 562 Posts	Re: It's Time to combine Don't forget some of the stick horsepower ratings are less than the same combo with an auto. Thus the index difference. At least with my combo in SS. __________________ Mike Pearson 2485 SS

09-05-2012, 07:10 PM	#4
Jeff Lee VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Anthem, Arizona Posts: 2,766 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: It's Time to combine The reason some of the HP ratings are less for the stick cars is because less people race stick cars. It's a lot easier to be "king of the Hill" in a Stick class as the classes are so small. You may not be pushed very hard to go any faster. The reason auto cars have higher HP ratings is because the class is inundated with automatic cars. More hot dogs with ego's equal more nips at the AHFS. One MAJOR reason guys don't race stick cars is because they loose qualifying positions by racing a stick! Rob Youngblood can tell you how many sales he's lost because of this! As I said in a recent post, SS/JA vs SS/J; Don Little vs. Rob Youngblood. Both seem to run comparable ET's in qualifying yet Don will qualify in the top 5 while Rob will qualify 10+ positions down the ladder. Same HP rating, same weight (or at least within a few pounds). Is that reasonable? And some of you think this is nothing more than a bracket race so qualifying means little to you. Well, there are some of us that still adhere to the calling that this is a performance based class and qualifying higher than lower means something! Now, I have proposed this on this board more than once. Sticks and autos should be combined. I have also proposed that points should be awarded for top 10 & #1 qualifying positions. That would encourage some of you to let loose of the throttle stops every now and again. If that were the rule, that there are points on the line, then why should there be a disparity between indexes on stick vs. auto? I'll soon be back in D/S. Last issue of Nitro Joes (which every class racer should subscribe too!), Joe lists 8 competitors in D/S. Then look at D/SA. There's 63 in that class! Combine them and now we have 71 cars in a class and one less class. In D/S the two fast guys are Duzac & Byrd @ 10.35 each (wow!) but the two fast guys in D/SA are VanLant & Hill @ 10.51 each. Apparently there's an advantage to the stick there. But look at C/S vs. C/SA. In C/S the two fast guys are Wenzel & McNeish @ 10.51 each but the two fast guys in C/SA are Dean & Ratcliff both @ 10.37 each. Apparently the auto has an advantage here. In fact, I just went over all the Stock runs. Of the 25 classes from AA/S through W/S and AA/SA through AA/SA and looking at only the fastest in each class, the autos win 17-8! Stick wins in: B/S, D/S, G/S, O/S, Q/S, T/S & W/S (there are no R/S & U/S racers listed as participants). I didn't count the FWD classes. So if your crying that the stick has a huge advantage, it just doesn't appear that way. Combine the classes and I personally could care less how they split the Index. Take the high, take the low or split the difference. One way or the other, NHRA will say the AHFS will take care issues. NHRA would cut 25 classes and save on trophies. I think this would also eliminate the "Stick / auto combos" which I'm still not sure what I think of that program. But that's for another thread. More: Of the 27 classes SHOWN: 7 are the same, stick / auto index 7 are .05 apart 6 are .10 apart 3 are .15 apart 1 IS .20 apart 2 ARE .25 apart So in Stock at least, there's not the big gap of stick / auto indexes to be concerned about. Unless your one of the (very) few with sticks in the slowest classes. Here's the index table: Stock Indexes Last Update: 9/4/2012 Class 1/4 Mile 1/8 Mile AA/S 10.00 06.50 - Auto is SAME A/S 10.95 07.06 - Auto is .05 SLOWER B/S 11.20 07.21 - Auto is .15 SLOWER C/S 11.35 07.31 - Auto is .05 SLOWER D/S 11.50 07.39 - Auto is .05 SLOWER E/S 11.65 07.47 - Auto is .05 SLOWER F/S 11.80 07.57 - Auto is .05 SLOWER G/S 11.90 07.62 - Auto is .10 SLOWER H/S 12.00 07.68 - Auto is .15 SLOWER I/S 12.20 07.79 - Auto is .10 SLOWER J/S 12.35 07.89 - Auto is .10 SLOWER K/S 12.55 08.00 - Auto is .10 SLOWER L/S 12.70 08.08 - Auto is SAME M/S 12.85 08.18 - Auto is SAME N/S 12.95 08.22 - Auto is .05 SLOWER O/S 13.10 08.32 - Auto is .05 SLOWER P/S 13.35 08.46 - Auto is .10 SLOWER Q/S 13.65 08.62 - Auto is .15 SLOWER R/S 13.95 08.79 - Auto is .10 SLOWER T/S 14.40 09.04 - Auto is SAME U/S 14.65 09.17 - Auto is .20 SLOWER V/S 15.25 09.51 - Auto is .25 SLOWER W/S 16.40 10.17 - Auto is .25 SLOWER FS/S 09.90 06.44 - HUH? AAA/S 09.70 06.32 - Auto is SAME BB/S 10.30 06.68 - Auto is SAME CC/S 10.60 06.86 - Auto is SAME __________________ Jeff Lee 7494 D/S '70 AMX Last edited by Jeff Lee; 09-05-2012 at 08:02 PM.

09-05-2012, 07:44 PM	#5
Jeff Lee VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Anthem, Arizona Posts: 2,766 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: It's Time to combine Here is the Super Stock Indexes: Super Stock Indexes Last Update: 9/4/2012 Class 1/4 Mile 1/8 Mile SS/AH 09.30 06.08 SS/A 09.65 06.28 - Auto is .25 QUICKER SS/B 09.90 06.44 - Auto is SAME SS/C 10.05 06.53 - Auto is SAME SS/D 10.20 06.62 - Auto is SAME SS/E 10.25 06.65 - Auto is .10 SLOWER SS/F 10.35 06.71 - Auto is .10 SLOWER SS/G 10.45 06.77 - Auto is .10 SLOWER SS/H 10.50 06.80 - Auto is .10 SLOWER SS/I 10.50 06.83 - Auto is .20 SLOWER SS/J 10.80 06.98 - Auto is .20 SLOWER SS/K 11.00 07.10 - Auto is .25 SLOWER SS/L 11.25 07.24 - Auto is .20 SLOWER SS/M 11.60 07.45 - Auto is .25 SLOWER SS/N 11.95 07.65 - Auto is .20 SLOWER SS/O 12.20 07.79 - Auto is .10 SLOWER SS/P 12.50 07.97 - Auto is .15 SLOWER GT/A 10.00 06.50 - Auto is .10 SLOWER GT/B 10.10 06.57 - Auto is .15 SLOWER GT/C 10.20 06.62 - Auto is .20 SLOWER GT/D 10.35 06.71 - Auto is .15 SLOWER GT/E 10.50 06.80 - Auto is .15 SLOWER GT/F 10.60 06.86 - Auto is .20 SLOWER GT/G 10.75 06.95 - Auto is .15 SLOWER GT/H 10.85 07.01 - Auto is .20 SLOWER GT/I 10.95 07.06 - Auto is .25 SLOWER GT/J 11.05 07.13 - Auto is .25 SLOWER GT/K 11.10 07.16 - Auto is .35 SLOWER GT/L 11.30 07.27 - Auto is .25 SLOWER GT/M 11.50 07.39 - Auto is .25 SLOWER Of the 30 classes shown: 3 are the same, stick / auto index 6 are .10 apart 5 are .15 apart 7 are .20 apart 7 are .25 apart 1 is .35 apart SS/AH is one class, stick & auto COMBINED. __________________ Jeff Lee 7494 D/S '70 AMX

09-05-2012, 08:18 PM	#6
rx dealer Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lake Orion, Michigan Posts: 336 Likes: 11 Liked 53 Times in 13 Posts	Re: It's Time to combine Thanks Jeff very informative and proves my point...Luke SS 311 Last edited by rx dealer; 09-05-2012 at 08:21 PM.

09-05-2012, 04:12 PM	#1
rx dealer Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lake Orion, Michigan Posts: 336 Likes: 11 Liked 53 Times in 13 Posts	Re: It's Time to combine the Index [QUOTE=Tony Janes;344635]It is very fair, that is part of a handicap eliminator.[/QUOTE you're right tony. I / we are being handicapped for running a stick...Luke SS 311

09-05-2012, 10:03 PM	#7
Tony Janes Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Whittier, Ca Posts: 830 Likes: 77 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: It's Time to combine None of that is going to happen" __________________ Tony Janes 7941 STK, SS

09-06-2012, 02:27 PM	#8
Dyno Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 905 Likes: 1,097 Liked 659 Times in 196 Posts	Re: It's Time to combine SS/AH is a combined auto/stick class and the sticks have the auto's covered.

09-07-2012, 02:53 PM	#9
Toby Lang VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 2,133 Likes: 2 Liked 2 Times in 1 Post	Re: It's Time to combine How about this popular argument that's used when people bring up rule changes?: You knew what the rules were when you built your car. If you want to run with the autos, put an auto in the car. You know there are some people who put sticks in their cars to get away from heads-up races. -Toby