AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation - Page 2

RJ Sledge · 09-11-2007, 02:23 PM

Jim I agree with you 100%

Don't want to get all the FI gods mad, but it is quite evident that the hp ratings on some of these combo's don't equate.

I can understand NHRA wanting to combine classes, but how can they throw us all in together and hope that the AHFS will work this time, since it never has worked it the past?

If the FI cars were closer in actual HP numbers, I would have no objection to combining all, but I don't think they are even close in most of the combinations. One just has to look at the qualifying sheets from Division races.

What about combining all stick and auto classes, just keeping the carb cars and FI cars separate?

R J Sledge

Jeff Teuton · 09-11-2007, 08:55 PM

I sent an email to Nitro Joe today. Maybe he can give us the averages for the LS1 in A (8lbs), B (9lbs), and C (10 lbs) vs A/S (A) @ 8 lbs, C @ 9 lbs and E/SA @ 10 lbs. Does anything other than an LS1 run in A & B?

Chad Rhodes · 09-11-2007, 09:06 PM

Jeff I believe the LT-1 cars can run B/FIA and B/FI with the weight out.

mbrace5 · 09-11-2007, 09:21 PM

LT-1 fits B/FIA with weight right at 3200lbs in 98 camaro.

Bernie Cunningham · 09-12-2007, 12:42 AM

Please be fair here, you really need to seperate the argument. All new combinations are fuel injected and some have been here for a while. While I say that, some are not factered correctly, the LT1 and LS1 have been pounded with NHRA hp. ( it needs time to evolve all new combo's hp ) and a legal one is about right, across the board ( I'm biased towards LT1 been OK ). Unsure of the Ford combo's, but I bet somebody with a good legal piece wouldn't mind commenting on that. The LS1's are still been figured out and will continue to show some performance gains, they're a bad piece if you can keep 'em together!
What's wrong?????????????
I believe that the Tech dept. has passed many bogus set's of heads, it's not about light rotating assemblies ( records, teardowns etc. ) in the past few years and it's because they don't need any drama and they'll pass 'em!!! The 'Old school' tech. guys see it all the time and know it, but, they're not allowed to do the job their paid for, albiet, a small amount ! It could be the new (2007) attitude for NHRA tech. department!!!!!!!! I'm really concerned about this because it seems you can get away with no grinding marks and if it makes CC's it's OK. Now we need 'em to pour 'em and give us a number !!! Some engine builders are using this knowlege to their advantange and making it work, heck, if I built engines I'd want the sell the fastest piece that passes.
There have been major gains in transmission technology lately and it shows, but, some guy's are way out there and ya just gota ask how did he do that ?????????
Ya' can't stop anybody from playing within the rules as they're inforced. There in lies the problem, Petey!!!!!
Bottom line, wait till you you see the new breed of FI cars coming your way, the new weight break may be the reason? It'll be in your theatre soon !!!!!
That's my rant, B

P. S. Once consolidated, how does everbody feel about the one pound weight break, we've had it all the time and it means, for an LT1, you need to shift 672 pounds between A/fia thru C/fia. The higher the HP, the more weight it takes to go down one class and it's crazy. If it stays the same, we won't be able to run B/sa or D/sa. Take away the one pound break and most of us would run, the way it was, C/sa thru E/sa, I think I'm right, but I've been wrong before!
B

mbrace5 · 09-12-2007, 02:37 PM

Bernie your close. The LS-1 and LT-1 are both legal for B/FIA. I know that a LT-1 has the record but that was in ballistic air. A real good LT-1 will not run with a real good LS-1. Im not complaining it just will not do it. It was my choice to build a LT-1. If the trend continues, I will do a LS-1. I do not see how NHRA could ever make the traditional stockers and the FI cars compatable. Just my 2 cents worth.

Glenn Briglio · 09-12-2007, 07:59 PM

Put the FI cars back in.They have been factored pretty hard and they are factory built cars that should run against carb cars.More heads up runs, this is a performance based class.You can adjust your carb the same as changing your fuel curve via laptop.If you can't run with them either try harder or join them.Glenn.

Jim Cimarolli · 09-12-2007, 11:58 PM

Hey Glenn,
You make it sound pretty easy, what kind of car do you race in Stock?

Bernie Cunningham · 09-13-2007, 12:06 AM

Jim, my bro, ya sound a little repressed with the future competition !

For all you guys that think an FI car is a walk in the park, we've got more problems than you can even imagine, untill ya figure it out! I'm happy to say that I've done that with hard work, no lottery here either.

Don't be scared of the red light! B

Evan Smith · 09-13-2007, 07:43 AM

Jim,

Glenn and his partneer Henry Kunz run one of the baddest G/SA 350 Novas in the country, with a carburetor and a 'glide. Henry, Bruce Noland, Steve Ficcaci, myslef and a few others have been tightly packed in Jr. Stock. At times I've had the fastest car and at times it has been the other guys, all on an 11.0-lb. break.

Glenn and Bruce have been 10.70s and can run with my Ford all day long. Ficcaci isn't far behind, neither are a few 340 Mopars, such as Dusty Lowel and Mark Dickerson. Fact is, Bernie is right, EFI is not magic, the air goes in and we have to tune the fuel and the timing curves just like anyone with a carburetor. Of course a fuel injector will atomize fuel very efficiently, but most throttle bodies are small compared to some of the carburetors. Anyone with a carburetor can purcahse a MSD 7 ignition and have a tunable timing map and even do cylinder-to-cylinder timing. One could easily argue that EFI is better for all-around performance and drivability (cold-start, fuel economy, etc.), but most drag cars operate in a small rpm window where EFI and carburetion is actually quite equal. I've dyno tested many engines with EFI vs carburetor and they always seem to be close. And like Bernie stated, there is a lot more that can go wrong with an EFI car.

Most EFI engines are better because of improved manifold and cylinder head port design. But what is NHRA to do, give everyone their own class so everyone in our PC world can have a trophy? My car has EFI, but is 20 years old so i'd hardly call it state of the art. If the car came from Detroit it should not be segregated. Had segregation not occured years ago the problem cars would have straightened themselves out much quicker. Carbureted cars have had many new parts become legal such as the intake for the 396 that most guys are picking up .08 to a tenth with. How is an EFI car supposed to combat that? I'm not picking on Chevy guys, I love the original muscle cars and know full well that they need superseded parts to keep going. If anyone thinks that the superseded parts aren't better than original then get off the drugs. Let me add that engines from the Big 3 are only going to get better. The technology will improve and the cars will go fast. Let them run and let the AHFS sort it out. If new technology is better then go in that direction.

Let's get real, this is Class racing. There is no way to make thousands of combinations 100% equal, however, the more heads-up runs that occur, the more the AHFS system will work. There will be less babysiting of combinations and less sandbagging. All we need to do is count every run to prevent the sandbagging.

Evan

09-11-2007, 02:23 PM	#11
RJ Sledge Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 789 Likes: 504 Liked 289 Times in 91 Posts	Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation Jim I agree with you 100% Don't want to get all the FI gods mad, but it is quite evident that the hp ratings on some of these combo's don't equate. I can understand NHRA wanting to combine classes, but how can they throw us all in together and hope that the AHFS will work this time, since it never has worked it the past? If the FI cars were closer in actual HP numbers, I would have no objection to combining all, but I don't think they are even close in most of the combinations. One just has to look at the qualifying sheets from Division races. What about combining all stick and auto classes, just keeping the carb cars and FI cars separate? R J Sledge

09-11-2007, 08:55 PM	#12
Jeff Teuton VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Houma, LA Posts: 2,717 Likes: 2 Liked 325 Times in 50 Posts	Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation I sent an email to Nitro Joe today. Maybe he can give us the averages for the LS1 in A (8lbs), B (9lbs), and C (10 lbs) vs A/S (A) @ 8 lbs, C @ 9 lbs and E/SA @ 10 lbs. Does anything other than an LS1 run in A & B? Last edited by Jeff Teuton; 09-11-2007 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Typo

09-11-2007, 09:06 PM	#13
Chad Rhodes VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Where the Green Grass Grows, AL Posts: 2,375 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation Jeff I believe the LT-1 cars can run B/FIA and B/FI with the weight out. __________________ Chad Rhodes 2113 I/SA

09-11-2007, 09:21 PM	#14
mbrace5 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Shelby,NC Posts: 89 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation LT-1 fits B/FIA with weight right at 3200lbs in 98 camaro.

09-12-2007, 12:42 AM	#15
Bernie Cunningham Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 560 Likes: 46 Liked 52 Times in 17 Posts	Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation Please be fair here, you really need to seperate the argument. All new combinations are fuel injected and some have been here for a while. While I say that, some are not factered correctly, the LT1 and LS1 have been pounded with NHRA hp. ( it needs time to evolve all new combo's hp ) and a legal one is about right, across the board ( I'm biased towards LT1 been OK ). Unsure of the Ford combo's, but I bet somebody with a good legal piece wouldn't mind commenting on that. The LS1's are still been figured out and will continue to show some performance gains, they're a bad piece if you can keep 'em together! What's wrong????????????? I believe that the Tech dept. has passed many bogus set's of heads, it's not about light rotating assemblies ( records, teardowns etc. ) in the past few years and it's because they don't need any drama and they'll pass 'em!!! The 'Old school' tech. guys see it all the time and know it, but, they're not allowed to do the job their paid for, albiet, a small amount ! It could be the new (2007) attitude for NHRA tech. department!!!!!!!! I'm really concerned about this because it seems you can get away with no grinding marks and if it makes CC's it's OK. Now we need 'em to pour 'em and give us a number !!! Some engine builders are using this knowlege to their advantange and making it work, heck, if I built engines I'd want the sell the fastest piece that passes. There have been major gains in transmission technology lately and it shows, but, some guy's are way out there and ya just gota ask how did he do that ????????? Ya' can't stop anybody from playing within the rules as they're inforced. There in lies the problem, Petey!!!!! Bottom line, wait till you you see the new breed of FI cars coming your way, the new weight break may be the reason? It'll be in your theatre soon !!!!! That's my rant, B P. S. Once consolidated, how does everbody feel about the one pound weight break, we've had it all the time and it means, for an LT1, you need to shift 672 pounds between A/fia thru C/fia. The higher the HP, the more weight it takes to go down one class and it's crazy. If it stays the same, we won't be able to run B/sa or D/sa. Take away the one pound break and most of us would run, the way it was, C/sa thru E/sa, I think I'm right, but I've been wrong before! B Last edited by Bernie Cunningham; 09-12-2007 at 01:09 AM. Reason: Another thought

09-12-2007, 02:37 PM	#16
mbrace5 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Shelby,NC Posts: 89 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation Bernie your close. The LS-1 and LT-1 are both legal for B/FIA. I know that a LT-1 has the record but that was in ballistic air. A real good LT-1 will not run with a real good LS-1. Im not complaining it just will not do it. It was my choice to build a LT-1. If the trend continues, I will do a LS-1. I do not see how NHRA could ever make the traditional stockers and the FI cars compatable. Just my 2 cents worth.

09-12-2007, 07:59 PM	#17
Glenn Briglio VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Massapequa Park,NY Posts: 1,287 Likes: 1,907 Liked 974 Times in 310 Posts	Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation Put the FI cars back in.They have been factored pretty hard and they are factory built cars that should run against carb cars.More heads up runs, this is a performance based class.You can adjust your carb the same as changing your fuel curve via laptop.If you can't run with them either try harder or join them.Glenn.

09-12-2007, 11:58 PM	#18
Jim Cimarolli Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Sulphur Springs Texas Posts: 743 Likes: 146 Liked 166 Times in 46 Posts	Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation Hey Glenn, You make it sound pretty easy, what kind of car do you race in Stock?

09-13-2007, 12:06 AM	#19
Bernie Cunningham Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 560 Likes: 46 Liked 52 Times in 17 Posts	Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation Jim, my bro, ya sound a little repressed with the future competition ! For all you guys that think an FI car is a walk in the park, we've got more problems than you can even imagine, untill ya figure it out! I'm happy to say that I've done that with hard work, no lottery here either. Don't be scared of the red light! B

09-13-2007, 07:43 AM	#20
Evan Smith Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 400 Likes: 7 Liked 115 Times in 5 Posts	Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation Jim, Glenn and his partneer Henry Kunz run one of the baddest G/SA 350 Novas in the country, with a carburetor and a 'glide. Henry, Bruce Noland, Steve Ficcaci, myslef and a few others have been tightly packed in Jr. Stock. At times I've had the fastest car and at times it has been the other guys, all on an 11.0-lb. break. Glenn and Bruce have been 10.70s and can run with my Ford all day long. Ficcaci isn't far behind, neither are a few 340 Mopars, such as Dusty Lowel and Mark Dickerson. Fact is, Bernie is right, EFI is not magic, the air goes in and we have to tune the fuel and the timing curves just like anyone with a carburetor. Of course a fuel injector will atomize fuel very efficiently, but most throttle bodies are small compared to some of the carburetors. Anyone with a carburetor can purcahse a MSD 7 ignition and have a tunable timing map and even do cylinder-to-cylinder timing. One could easily argue that EFI is better for all-around performance and drivability (cold-start, fuel economy, etc.), but most drag cars operate in a small rpm window where EFI and carburetion is actually quite equal. I've dyno tested many engines with EFI vs carburetor and they always seem to be close. And like Bernie stated, there is a lot more that can go wrong with an EFI car. Most EFI engines are better because of improved manifold and cylinder head port design. But what is NHRA to do, give everyone their own class so everyone in our PC world can have a trophy? My car has EFI, but is 20 years old so i'd hardly call it state of the art. If the car came from Detroit it should not be segregated. Had segregation not occured years ago the problem cars would have straightened themselves out much quicker. Carbureted cars have had many new parts become legal such as the intake for the 396 that most guys are picking up .08 to a tenth with. How is an EFI car supposed to combat that? I'm not picking on Chevy guys, I love the original muscle cars and know full well that they need superseded parts to keep going. If anyone thinks that the superseded parts aren't better than original then get off the drugs. Let me add that engines from the Big 3 are only going to get better. The technology will improve and the cars will go fast. Let them run and let the AHFS sort it out. If new technology is better then go in that direction. Let's get real, this is Class racing. There is no way to make thousands of combinations 100% equal, however, the more heads-up runs that occur, the more the AHFS system will work. There will be less babysiting of combinations and less sandbagging. All we need to do is count every run to prevent the sandbagging. Evan __________________ Evan Smith 1798 STK Last edited by Evan Smith; 09-13-2007 at 07:51 AM.