AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation

[bill dedman]

Bruce,

I am not a racer, and have no dog in this hunt, but I would like to submit a suggestion for your consideration.

To wit:
Please include with your laundry list of modifications/improvements to the AHFS, a suggestion that the business of factoring an engine in a PARTICULAR CHASSIS, and not "across the board" is illogical to the point of bizarre. An engine has no knowledge of what kind of chassis it's installed in and unless there are OVERT problems in constructing suitable headers, will make virtually the same flywheel horsepower in ANY Stocker chassis.

The racers I have talked to all agree that somebody with some axe to grind got this system into place, (were trhe racers polled???) and it surely does not contribute to a "level playing field."

Nobody seems to know where this came from. Do you know?

Thanks much for your time and attention.

Bll

[Mark Yacavone]

Bill, It makes perfect sense. Take a T/SA 283/220 wagon that goes 1.15 under and then subtract the weight difference of a Chevy II in I/SA with the same motor . Now look at the index difference. Tell me if the Chevy II needs hp put on it.

[Bruce Noland]

Guys,

My point is the version of the AHFS that we the racers approved should be the HP system that we use. Not this unauthorized and unpublished (in advance) version that Wesley has come up with. Just read the first version of the AHFS that we all approved and then read Wesley's twisted version. And remember he has made all these changes and not given any advanced notification of the changes. That should be enough to get your blood boiling.

What would I want to add to the version that we approved? Nothing!

You can forget about all the trick math and weather factors because that would require an expenditure of nhra cash!

The original system was working as well as can be expected. It has been said many times, that there is no one system that will cure the HP factoring problems. The original AHFS was doing the job it was intended to do but the powercrats at nhra, like Wesley, won't leave it alone.

[bill dedman]

Mark; is the glass half full or half empty? Sounds to me like the indexes are at fault. How can an engine make more horsepower in a wagon than it makes in a light two-door sedan?

It can't.

If there's a problem relative to the index, look at the index, not the horsepower involved; you KNOW the output of the engine doesn't change from chassis-to-chassis. The problem of inappropriate indexes is spread throughout the entire class system. To predicaate a horsepower factoring system that dictates factrored horsepower based in the vehicle the engine it's in makes NO sense to me.

Looks like NHRA needs to adjust the index, if it's wrong (and it sure looks that way.)

The situation you point out clearly illustrates that the indexes in those two classes are badly skewed.... one of them, at least, is too fast, or too slow. They need to fix THAT, not continue this fairytale of engines changing output depending on their 'host vehicle." You KNOW that doesn't really happen.

Looks like we have the tail wagging the dog, here.

As I said, I am not a (class) racer, so maybe I shouldn't even be posting on this; it just seemed that if Bruce was actually going to address the AFHS issue with the Ivory Tower, then this issue could be a part of that, But, since he hasn't replied to my post, perhaps he has no interest in making this a part of his presentation; I can only guess. It could be that he doesn't want to "muddy the water" by presenting too many issues at one time, or perhaps he agrees with you that incorrect indexes can be dealt with by skewing the horsepower numbers in SELECT vehicles, and not applying the factored HP for an engine "across the board."

Maybe he'll let us know how he feels about this, one way or the other.

Again, thanks for your time and input.

Bill

[Keith Anderson]

I think the main reason for NOT combining FI cards with Carb cars is rather simple...if you consider that the developement, R&D, etc on the carb cars vs FI cars are not the same....Carb cars have almost reached their potential, while FI cars with fuel injection, software programs, etc have far more future R & D to improve performance.

With all (blocks, cranks, rods, pistons, cyl heads, cams, etc) assumed legal for both, the FI cars will continue to find greater performance improvements beyond these hard parts. Also as someone has noted, a FI car has a far greater advantage with weather changes, a fact that makes a carb car far more difficult to correct for, yes you can change jets, timing, but you can't change the fuel curve, or timing curve, reprogram the software, as a FI car.

just my 2 cents....

[Glenn Briglio]

Hey Keith why can't you change the fuel curve on a carb via jets,metering rods, air bleeds etc?Distributors have provisions for timing advances,retards, and some manufacturers have programmable timing controls for advances or retards.

[Bernie Cunningham]

Keith, please re-read mine and Evans comments on this subject. All combo's are still evolving, higher and slower classes, it's not limited at all. FI cars are not 'magic' and will vary (sometimes worse) than any carb car. Once they are mapped and programmed ya leave em alone, just like a carb car except for a possible altitude 'tune up' change (i.e. jet change).

R.J., You talk about "FI hp factors that don't equate" well check out ANY Indy qualifing sheet to find a bunch of carb combo's, in the top half, that ya gotta wonder about!

Thx. B

[Dick Butler]

What a complex mess, Class racing has become. Unfortunately everyone is right, as far as they go.
A motor makes the same HP regardless which car, Yes
The body shape can affect the performance Yes
Choices of transmissions available affects some cars more than others Yes PG versus Turbo Vs Stick.
Too many bogus hp motors. TRUE
TOO many new underfactored motors from the factory each year given low hp to make them popular and suddenly kill off the OLD stuff.... TRUE
The indexes are off. Depends on which cars you use as the ideal car for the class performance.

Ideas. AH is stable one car, on combo class, no factoring differences and it works, YES

Should all classes be one car, one carb, one trans variable ? NO the issue is all the above and without a real committe or dictator who cares which cars are bogus no changes will stop the smart people who can afford to change cars from winning by changing cars, motor, trans,. It becomes an expensive proposition as factoring in the inferior methods used so far( mainly do to sensitivity of system being so slow) leaves the fast stuff dominating till the whole field is replaced with the originally bogus car and by that time a new "baby" with bogus hp is allowed to become the killer. etc etc. 400 motor, inj 350,inj305 now fords next?
Starting point should be to ......Recognize it is only a sport run by business men not racers. They officially care about how many people show up and until that number drops the methods will persist. Unfortunately Class racing will be replaced by more Bracket programs... T/S,T/D. Unless the factories and sponsors push for changes we as small people cannot negotiate.

[Bruce Noland]

Bill,

Reply to your post? Ivory tower?

I have told you exactly what I think about the AHFS. And yes it would help if you were a racer because you would then have a serious investment in the proper administration of the AHFS.

Many racers have been had by the latest round of AHFS hits, and they ain't happy about it either. So maybe you should go sit on the Ivory Tower. Or, regardless of your disclaimers, get a Class car.