Econo Modified

[Glenn Hayes]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

We did extensive computer modeling of this concept, ending up with everything from 350 small blocks to 540 big blocks running within less than a tenth of each other. Some ran the first half of the track better, and some ran the back half better, but it all came out in the wash.

Michael,
Has anyone done some real world testing of this on some drag cars?
I'm curious.

If I understand what your stating, in theory, we should be able to pick 20 cars, equip each with a single 4 barrel carb, install the 1" carb plate and the 2" header collector and have a group of cars that should E.T. with in approximately 0.10 of one another.

[randy wilson]

I'm curious too. Did they all weigh the same, as in lbs. per cubic inch?

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by randy wilson

Ok, I'm confused. Am I to believe that a 461X head unported, with tall valves, and big springs will run with a 15 degree done by Reher and Morrison? Someone needs to tell the Nascar guys, they're spending WAY to many $ on heads in the restrictor plate classes. They don't know a stock vortec will do the same thing, and only cost $800.

No, a 461X head won't run with a 15 degree head but you're manipulating the facts. The Nascar guys don't run the same exact heads on a restrictor plate motor or the same heads, cam, pistons or intake. And they're not restricting the exhaust either.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Glenn Hayes

Michael,
Has anyone done some real world testing of this on some drag cars?
I'm curious.

If I understand what your stating, in theory, we should be able to pick 20 cars, equip each with a single 4 barrel carb, install the 1" carb plate and the 2" header collector and have a group of cars that should E.T. with in approximately 0.10 of one another.

We actually had a major track owner and a DD interested in this and we had cars lined up to test but everybody got too busy and it never got done. BUT it'll be a whole bunch easier to get "20 cars, equip each with a single 4 barrel carb, install the 1" carb plate and the 2" header collector" and actually test them then it will be to get 20 cars, equip each with the same manufacturers spec head, install a trick clutch and 4 or 5 speed and get them all to weigh in on a 10 lb. per cube weight break!

[Dick Butler]

Billy very good point. Probably will take a few test and tune runs for jetting etc . Only difference is the guys will still have the 20K + motors when all is said and done but it would allow a test of the theory.

[joespanova]

Originally Posted by Glenn Hayes

Randy,
I get it, trust me, but where does developing another "Class Car" bring back the spectator? They don't even watch Pro Stock!

Heads Up, pounds per Cubic Inch racing was always great to watch. I've been to Bethany, even raced there a few times in the late '70's. I've been to every NHRA national track event in the country, and almost every divisional event track dozens of times. I worked for a major racing sponsor.

There are small groups all around the country that are having some success with their specific styles of cars, The Super Shifters, The East Coast Gassers, The Southeast Gasser Association, as others. These are not NHRA or IHRA classes, and the area track or tracks that love them and embrace them with support do so because they bring in a crowd.

This "Style" of racing is what is bring folks back to the drag strip:

To address the wheelstands stick v/s auto.......who cares? The wheelstands are for the attention whores anyway.
The stick cars are more entertaining to watch because of the violent nature or "presentation" that the automatic cars just dont have.
Lets face it , most stock and super stock cars are boring to watch unless you're a bonfide old school car guy like me.
The example in the video makes it clear........it's the theatrics associated with the cars that draw fans.......this new / old resurrection of an old idea has to keep that in mind.............it must be exciting for fans to watch. Real cars.....not chassis cars , running quick....if you're going to make it a 3000lb minimum then change the weight to 8.5 so a 350 wont have to carry so much weight........no ones going to build a small engine these days anyway.
The NHRA is clueless.
With regard to the comment about some sportsman racers "making a living" out of this , frankly , I don't see how...............and if so , what KIND of a living.........I can't believe anyone would even WANT to.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

Billy very good point. Probably will take a few test and tune runs for jetting etc . Only difference is the guys will still have the 20K + motors when all is said and done but it would allow a test of the theory.

Dick, by restricting the intake AND the exhaust you take away the need for that 20K + motor. It may even become a hinderance as your big cam and heads are going to cause reversion issues at some point, something that you don't need with a restricted intake. I believe that cylinder pressure, gearing and an overall ability to tune the combo will be the major factor. I also believe that you would wind up with two totally different schools of thought in the long run, big, torque monster dump truck motors and smaller well tuned and higher winding modified type motors.

[Dick Butler]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Dick, by restricting the intake AND the exhaust you take away the need for that 20K + motor. It may even become a hinderance as your big cam and heads are going to cause reversion issues at some point, something that you don't need with a restricted intake. I believe that cylinder pressure, gearing and an overall ability to tune the combo will be the major factor. I also believe that you would wind up with two totally different schools of thought in the long run, big, torque monster dump truck motors and smaller well tuned and higher winding modified type motors.

I understand Billy but the test cars would not prove too much towards the theory as you said they would still have the Cams, the heads, the parts.... We all are aware the small carb and exhaust would limit the performance so in some ways the testing would be of limited information.
As for monster truck motor remember the lb per cubic inch idea. No more 9 passenger wagons on steroids.
I am with Randy and many others it may never happen that an organization will decide to limit these specs BUT... just heard power boat racing has now developed a sealed or spec motor class. It has worked till now the guys are spending the money on trick hull for advantages.
Maybe if IHRA made any noise about it NHRA would do it to out do them.

[Mike Taylor 3601]

The first thing that came to mind with restrictor plates was nascar,I know they were introduced to slow down cars on super speedways,I think the theory was slap the plates on there and that would be it,I don't think they knew what was going to happen,they devoloped engines around the plates,spent lots and lots of dollars,on R&D,it seemed like simple fix but turned into nightmare.
I don't know if something like that would happen with Billy's ideal,but I think a engine could be built that would take advantage of restrictors on intake and exhaust,you put them on your ordinary engine it's going to make bigger difference,could you build engine to work with restrictors that would be advantage?maybe
I had friend worked nascar for years now retired,once told me of lasered intakes used on restrictor plate engines,they had thousands of tiny holes put in by laser so they could pull air through them,said they were mainly to qualify with because dirt,rubber,etc. would stop the holes after so many laps
I think the easiest and least expensive way to do this would be with the brodix spec heads,it would only allow 3 engines to be ran as evenly matched as possible
I believe if you allow deck height from 9.0-9.600 that would keep rotate assm. close in weight and that covers sbc,351w and sbm would allow guy to start w/stock block if they wanted that option.

The restrictors would allow many combo's which would be good,but could the parity be kept equal?

The main thing in my opinion that kills most heads up racing that fails is,a few run off from everyone else then you are left w/2-3 cars and it's over.
Keep cost down,cars evenly matched,I believe it could work.
MikeTaylor 3601

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

just heard power boat racing has now developed a sealed or spec motor class.

Check into the APBA and let me know what you think then. They're hurting so badly for participants that they, on occasion, have to cancel races.