Stock Suggestion # 1

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I've read a lot of replies to this thread, and read them several times. I keep seeing people talking about "lighter cars breaking less parts", and "lighter cars being faster", among other things. I do not believe some of you understand what Jeff Teuton is proposing.

I suggest you read this again, and pay very close attention:



Don't get me wrong. I like Jeff Teuton, I respect him, he's a great guy, he's one of my favorite people, I always enjoy seeing him at the track or at a trade show, I always enjoy talking to him, even though we often do not agree at all. The fact that we disagree completely on this subject does not change that at all.

You will not end up with a lighter car under his HP factor reduction proposal. You will not end up with a faster car. You will end up with a car that runs further under the index. In a lower class. Temporarily.

Jeff asked for an example, so here is one very similar to what he started with.

Take a current, very popular combination, the 1969 Camaro 396/375 with aluminum heads. Currently, this car is a natural A car, with a HP factor of 405HP, and a curb weight of 3337 pounds. Currently, it is at 8.24 pounds per factored HP, which being between 8.0 and 8.5 is a natural A/SA. So, Jeff Teuton is proposing to take 10% off of the current 405HP factor. As such, 405HP, minus 40.5HP, or 10%, equals 364.5HP, which rounds up to 365HP. Your curb weight remains the same, 3337 pounds. So, 3337 pounds, divided by the new HP factor of 365HP, yields a factor of 9.14 pounds per HP, which being between 9.0 and 9.5 pounds per HP, makes it a natural C/SA combination, you can run B/SA, C/SA, or D/SA . So, your A/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0, now becomes a C/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0. Your index changes from 11.00, to 11.40. So, where you were running 1.0 under the index, now you can run 1.4 under the index. And when you run 1.4 under the index, the next Tuesday, you get a nice little gift from NHRA, of 26.46HP, rounded up to 27HP, putting you right up at 392HP, well over 1/2 way back to where you started. And we all know the combination is capable of 1.1 to 1.2 under right now in a fast car. So when someone in a C/SA 69 Camaro 396/375 aluminum head car runs one all the way out, well, I think you know what happens then.

Now, I'm not seeing the real gift here. You pretty much just drop a couple of classes, so you can run further under. So now, you have to sand bag, drop at 1000', or what ever you need to do to kill over 2 tenths, (that's if you started with a 1.0 under car) just to avoid an instant 3.25% hit, and hope everyone else does the same, to protect your combination. And they won't. The AHFS is going to get you, and hang that HP back on you, either by instant hits when someone wants to or needs to go fast, or by constantly hitting the trigger for an adjustment for the average.

He's not proposing to reduce your weight, and make your car faster, he's proposing to move your car down 2-3 classes so you can run 1.4 to 1.6 under the index. Which, since you will NOT be immune to the AHFS like the factory cars are at some races, will earn you that same HP right back.

You're car is not going to be lighter, so it breaks fewer parts, and goes faster. Your car is just going to move down a few classes so it can run further under the index. For a very short while, until someone with your combination starts getting you some nice gifts from NHRA on Tuesday mornings.

If you think that's a good solution, well, go right ahead and support it. I guess if you want your good running A/SA car to become a real fast C/SA car, it works okay. So long as everyone protects it. From where I sit, it looks like worse than where we are right now. This is a very short term temporary solution. It has zero effect on the factory race cars that now cause the problem. Zero effect. Nothing changes for them.


If anyone successfully convinces NHRA to do anything about the problem, and that in itself is a huge "if", they're going to do one thing, one time. If it doesn't work, oh well. So, be real careful what you ask for, or what someone asks for on your behalf.

I guess I'll be the one to bring up an "issue" that Jeff would never think of, when this "fix" gets down into the lower classes it will push the cars out of classes that they are in into classes that they can't legally run. Example, Capt. Jacks wagon. Take 10% off of his wagon (10% of 215 =21.5/22) and he's got a V/SA car that can't run V with a V/8 or he winds up in U with a car that can't make minimum wt. anyway. It would drastically affect the FWD stuff too.

[Hagen Gary]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

I've read a lot of replies to this thread, and read them several times. I keep seeing people talking about "lighter cars breaking less parts", and "lighter cars being faster", among other things. I do not believe some of you understand what Jeff Teuton is proposing.

I suggest you read this again, and pay very close attention:



Don't get me wrong. I like Jeff Teuton, I respect him, he's a great guy, he's one of my favorite people, I always enjoy seeing him at the track or at a trade show, I always enjoy talking to him, even though we often do not agree at all. The fact that we disagree completely on this subject does not change that at all.

You will not end up with a lighter car under his HP factor reduction proposal. You will not end up with a faster car. You will end up with a car that runs further under the index. In a lower class. Temporarily.

Jeff asked for an example, so here is one very similar to what he started with.

Take a current, very popular combination, the 1969 Camaro 396/375 with aluminum heads. Currently, this car is a natural A car, with a HP factor of 405HP, and a curb weight of 3337 pounds. Currently, it is at 8.24 pounds per factored HP, which being between 8.0 and 8.5 is a natural A/SA. So, Jeff Teuton is proposing to take 10% off of the current 405HP factor. As such, 405HP, minus 40.5HP, or 10%, equals 364.5HP, which rounds up to 365HP. Your curb weight remains the same, 3337 pounds. So, 3337 pounds, divided by the new HP factor of 365HP, yields a factor of 9.14 pounds per HP, which being between 9.0 and 9.5 pounds per HP, makes it a natural C/SA combination, you can run B/SA, C/SA, or D/SA . So, your A/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0, now becomes a C/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0. Your index changes from 11.00, to 11.40. So, where you were running 1.0 under the index, now you can run 1.4 under the index. And when you run 1.4 under the index, the next Tuesday, you get a nice little gift from NHRA, of 26.46HP, rounded up to 27HP, putting you right up at 392HP, well over 1/2 way back to where you started. And we all know the combination is capable of 1.1 to 1.2 under right now in a fast car. So when someone in a C/SA 69 Camaro 396/375 aluminum head car runs one all the way out, well, I think you know what happens then.

Now, I'm not seeing the real gift here. You pretty much just drop a couple of classes, so you can run further under. So now, you have to sand bag, drop at 1000', or what ever you need to do to kill over 2 tenths, (that's if you started with a 1.0 under car) just to avoid an instant 3.25% hit, and hope everyone else does the same, to protect your combination. And they won't. The AHFS is going to get you, and hang that HP back on you, either by instant hits when someone wants to or needs to go fast, or by constantly hitting the trigger for an adjustment for the average.

He's not proposing to reduce your weight, and make your car faster, he's proposing to move your car down 2-3 classes so you can run 1.4 to 1.6 under the index. Which, since you will NOT be immune to the AHFS like the factory cars are at some races, will earn you that same HP right back.

You're car is not going to be lighter, so it breaks fewer parts, and goes faster. Your car is just going to move down a few classes so it can run further under the index. For a very short while, until someone with your combination starts getting you some nice gifts from NHRA on Tuesday mornings.

If you think that's a good solution, well, go right ahead and support it. I guess if you want your good running A/SA car to become a real fast C/SA car, it works okay. So long as everyone protects it. From where I sit, it looks like worse than where we are right now. This is a very short term temporary solution. It has zero effect on the factory race cars that now cause the problem. Zero effect. Nothing changes for them.


If anyone successfully convinces NHRA to do anything about the problem, and that in itself is a huge "if", they're going to do one thing, one time. If it doesn't work, oh well. So, be real careful what you ask for, or what someone asks for on your behalf.

Nailed it!! 10% off for old cars is an absolute joke. I can't even believe it's gaining traction with some people. It will solve nothing. Is that Jeff's intent? I would hope not. Old cars arnt the problem. They didn't cause this mess. Fix the real problem

[Joseph Teuton]

Quote: Take a current, very popular combination, the 1969 Camaro 396/375 with aluminum heads. Currently, this car is a natural A car, with a HP factor of 405HP, and a curb weight of 3337 pounds. Currently, it is at 8.24 pounds per factored HP, which being between 8.0 and 8.5 is a natural A/SA. So, Jeff Teuton is proposing to take 10% off of the current 405HP factor. As such, 405HP, minus 40.5HP, or 10%, equals 364.5HP, which rounds up to 365HP. Your curb weight remains the same, 3337 pounds. So, 3337 pounds, divided by the new HP factor of 365HP, yields a factor of 9.14 pounds per HP, which being between 9.0 and 9.5 pounds per HP, makes it a natural C/SA combination, you can run B/SA, C/SA, or D/SA . So, your A/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0, now becomes a C/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0. Your index changes from 11.00, to 11.40. So, where you were running 1.0 under the index, now you can run 1.4 under the index. And when you run 1.4 under the index, the next Tuesday, you get a nice little gift from NHRA, of 26.46HP, rounded up to 27HP, putting you right up at 392HP, well over 1/2 way back to where you started. And we all know the combination is capable of 1.1 to 1.2 under right now in a fast car. So when someone in a C/SA 69 Camaro 396/375 aluminum head car runs one all the way out, well, I think you know what happens then.

Now, I'm not seeing the real gift here. You pretty much just drop a couple of classes, so you can run further under. So now, you have to sand bag, drop at 1000', or what ever you need to do to kill over 2 tenths, (that's if you started with a 1.0 under car) just to avoid an instant 3.25% hit, and hope everyone else does the same, to protect your combination. And they won't. The AHFS is going to get you, and hang that HP back on you, either by instant hits when someone wants to or needs to go fast, or by constantly hitting the trigger for an adjustment for the average.

He's not proposing to reduce your weight, and make your car faster, he's proposing to move your car down 2-3 classes so you can run 1.4 to 1.6 under the index. Which, since you will NOT be immune to the AHFS like the factory cars are at some races, will earn you that same HP right back.

Guys this goes as the old saying....If you can't beat em, join em!

We purchased our cars and they can run 1.4-1.6 under. Which many of them today can not go that far under. Quick question, When you purchased your old(anything not considered new) how far under did it run?

I seem to me as my fathers purposing a way for yall(old cars) to be able to get back to 1.4-1.6 under and PROTECT your combination. Which is where the new cars are at now. Just as the old cars get hit so do the new cars, sorry except for 4 races.

How else will the sport grow if you never raise the bar?

[Jim Bailey]

I think it's a quick, easy, and simple step in the right direction.

[Michael Beard]

It has been raised. -1.40-1.60 under it the old -1.70-1.90 under.

What is the downside of properly factoring/classifying the factory cars? No one has asked for them to be factored so hard that they would be -.30 under players that no one would want to buy. They could've started out a lot more realistically and still be super cool, very fast, very competitive, and very desirable.

$.02,

[Jeff Teuton]

For those that missed my intention, this is aimed at one race, Indy. But that is the total focus here, Indy. Can't get in cause can't run fast next to the index. Other than Larry Hill, almost all the hits were new cars. Welcome back. Manage your combo, but we all know some guys are going all out. Can't change that. I have some other suggestions for the FS cars (which seems to have everyone riled up), but I am going to send them (at their requst) to NHRA first. This is too hot here. Might get shot, or worse lose my beer pass.

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

I guess I'll be the one to bring up an "issue" that Jeff would never think of, when this "fix" gets down into the lower classes it will push the cars out of classes that they are in into classes that they can't legally run. Example, Capt. Jacks wagon. Take 10% off of his wagon (10% of 215 =21.5/22) and he's got a V/SA car that can't run V with a V/8 or he winds up in U with a car that can't make minimum wt. anyway. It would drastically affect the FWD stuff too.

That's right Billy..It's called the rule of unintended consequences .

Also called "throwing out the baby with the bath water."

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Joseph Teuton

Quote: Take a current, very popular combination, the 1969 Camaro 396/375 with aluminum heads. Currently, this car is a natural A car, with a HP factor of 405HP, and a curb weight of 3337 pounds. Currently, it is at 8.24 pounds per factored HP, which being between 8.0 and 8.5 is a natural A/SA. So, Jeff Teuton is proposing to take 10% off of the current 405HP factor. As such, 405HP, minus 40.5HP, or 10%, equals 364.5HP, which rounds up to 365HP. Your curb weight remains the same, 3337 pounds. So, 3337 pounds, divided by the new HP factor of 365HP, yields a factor of 9.14 pounds per HP, which being between 9.0 and 9.5 pounds per HP, makes it a natural C/SA combination, you can run B/SA, C/SA, or D/SA . So, your A/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0, now becomes a C/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0. Your index changes from 11.00, to 11.40. So, where you were running 1.0 under the index, now you can run 1.4 under the index. And when you run 1.4 under the index, the next Tuesday, you get a nice little gift from NHRA, of 26.46HP, rounded up to 27HP, putting you right up at 392HP, well over 1/2 way back to where you started. And we all know the combination is capable of 1.1 to 1.2 under right now in a fast car. So when someone in a C/SA 69 Camaro 396/375 aluminum head car runs one all the way out, well, I think you know what happens then.

Now, I'm not seeing the real gift here. You pretty much just drop a couple of classes, so you can run further under. So now, you have to sand bag, drop at 1000', or what ever you need to do to kill over 2 tenths, (that's if you started with a 1.0 under car) just to avoid an instant 3.25% hit, and hope everyone else does the same, to protect your combination. And they won't. The AHFS is going to get you, and hang that HP back on you, either by instant hits when someone wants to or needs to go fast, or by constantly hitting the trigger for an adjustment for the average.

He's not proposing to reduce your weight, and make your car faster, he's proposing to move your car down 2-3 classes so you can run 1.4 to 1.6 under the index. Which, since you will NOT be immune to the AHFS like the factory cars are at some races, will earn you that same HP right back.

Guys this goes as the old saying....If you can't beat em, join em!

We purchased our cars and they can run 1.4-1.6 under. Which many of them today can not go that far under. Quick question, When you purchased your old(anything not considered new) how far under did it run?

I seem to me as my fathers purposing a way for yall(old cars) to be able to get back to 1.4-1.6 under and PROTECT your combination. Which is where the new cars are at now. Just as the old cars get hit so do the new cars, sorry except for 4 races.

How else will the sport grow if you never raise the bar?

Maybe I've been out here in the sun too long now, so tell me;
If the older cars get a 2 tenths gift, then they have to hit the automatic trigger to get in at Indy..So NHRA has to move the trigger higher to compensate.
The FX cars get a break that way because the AHFS doesn't work them over now...
So ,what have you gained?

[Bob Mulry]

Last time...................

Larry Morgan had it right.....You just can't fix stupid

Here we are setting our computers on fire trying to fix a problem that didn't exist before NHRA had a stupid attack and turned Stock Upside Down.........

This is my last solution for the problem that stupid started..

Whenever a NORMAL Stock Eliminator car is forced to race a Factory Shootout (FX) car the AHFS should be removed for BOTH cars on that run and in addition the NORMAL Stock Eliminator car will be able to run a 3 stage NOS system with no AHFS in place.....

This makes more sense than any other fix and makes tech inspection easy.......If 2 NORMAL Stock Eliminator car race they would be required to remove their NOS bottles and AHFS would remain in place...

Bob


PS:
Do you think that this sounds as stupid as some of the other fixes????????????????????????

[Jeff Teuton]

Yall fix it.