New Eliminator proposition

Rose Racing · 03-26-2015, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SStockDart

Proposed "New Eliminator" classes

First of all, in order to attempt to create a new eliminator class, it has to
be friendly for NHRA to administer. My most recent "tear down", was a 4-5 hour experience.
What I propose is a "New" modified production eliminator. Relatively easy to enforce and administer as compared to the current "stock and super stock" cars…, a "tear down" would amount to pumping the engine for cubic inches, fuel check, measuring the carburetor(s) and weight. This should amount to about 15 minutes, instead of 4 hours.

I propose that it works something like this. It would be run CIC like comp. Divided into 2 types of cars. First set of cars, restricted to a certain size carburetor (I recommend a 600 CFM), and 9 inch tires.

The second set would be multi-carburetor and maximum of a 14" tire.

Every car would be classed based on cubic inches to weight. So, a multi-carburetor car with big tires would be AA/MP, BB/MP, CC/MP and so forth…..while a single carburetor car with 9 inch tire would be A/MP, B/MP, C/MP….and so forth…based on cubic inches to weight…....down to a class for 6 cylinders and 4 cylinders, both having single and multi carb designation.

So, very likely, you would have approximately 18-20 different classes competing in one eliminator category.

IMO, all cars need to be "door slammers", without any tube frame components. Same engine manufacturer as per car. (Chevy car, Chevy engine, etc.) Absolutely no fuel injection, turbos, or blowers, just complicates the process. Fiberglass components allowed because it is a cubic inches to weight proposition.

A lot of details would need to be worked out obviously, but I believe that NHRA would be receptive to an Idea that takes "Man Hours" and expenses out off the process, and keep it simple.

What do you think?

Sounds interesting!

Tony Corley · 03-26-2015, 09:36 PM

I like the idea of new classes, but not the no E. F.I. It's time to come out if the dark ages, cars have not been produced with a carb in 20 years. If you want new blood in racing, you have to cater to what the new generations are accustomed to.
Fuel Injection and no breakouts are something they understand. I agree to no power adders.
If the NHRA really wants to attract new blood, have exciting sportsman racing, and keep costs somewhat reasonable, they should explore something similar to NMRA's Coyote Stock and NMCA LS Stock.
Corporate bodies, stock type suspension, and factory sealed crate motors and tune ups. Comes down to chassis and driver. Very affordable, and factory involvement to boot.

Alan Roehrich · 03-26-2015, 11:23 PM

Make it really easy. Make all the cars weigh 3200# plus 170# for the driver. I'd skip the "two types of cars" to keep it simple. Everyone gets one (4150 series) carburetor and 14"x32" tires. Five single carburetor classes, five indexes. Easier to factor and police.

A: 470 cubic inches maximum (440 minimum), canted valves, with a 1050 carburetor.

B: 420 cubic inches maximum (390 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with an 950 carburetor.

C: 360 cubic inches maximum (350 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with a 850 carburetor.

D: 305 cubic inches maximum (285 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with a 750 carburetor.

E: 300 cubic inch V6 (minimum 270), inline true wedge, 750 carburetor.

Cast iron OE supplied block, any OE supplied cylinder head, cast intake, steel connecting rods.

NHRA approved carburetors.

Clutchless transmission, maximum 5 forward speeds, 14"x32" tire, back half, fiberglass hood only, factory glass. For automatics, 150# weight break.

Pump for displacement, anything suspect comes apart. Any compression ratio, any valvetrain, any porting or polishing allowed.

Todd Bailey · 03-27-2015, 12:18 AM

From a year or so ago.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...ied+eliminator

I think it would be great

ss wannabee · 03-27-2015, 10:07 AM

Does Dick Butler know about this?

Dick Butler · 03-27-2015, 10:58 AM

I appreciate the alert to this. Seems there are several groups of people who like the idea of return to Modified for ease of tech. Some for lower costs if limited parts use. Refer to our posts regarding Econo Modified to get use of old SS cars with Brodix heads and very basic engine rule at LB/Cubic inchs.
Bottom Line there are MANY reasons to create a basic, cheaper, less tech class.
You will find many downplay the positives for fear of losing their current combinations and its advantages. (rule book created). A favorite fear is that money will dominate. If the class rule LIMITATIONS cut basic costs of Motor up front doesn't that count? as an advantage?
No One will Have to race a cheaper class, No one would have to give up their Bogus Hp cars but when the factoring Hammer hits there could be a more level place to race based on skills too. Besides there would still be eliminator for bracket style points meets and Nationals but winning or improving on past performance by tune up or skills could become a goal again, to say nothing of friendly competitiveness.
I do support a CHEAP SS class with basic Mod changes....

Ven302 · 03-28-2015, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alan roehrich

make it really easy. Make all the cars weigh 3200# plus 170# for the driver. I'd skip the "two types of cars" to keep it simple. Everyone gets one (4150 series) carburetor and 14"x32" tires. Five single carburetor classes, five indexes. Easier to factor and police.

A: 470 cubic inches maximum (440 minimum), canted valves, with a 1050 carburetor.

B: 420 cubic inches maximum (390 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with an 950 carburetor.

C: 360 cubic inches maximum (350 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with a 850 carburetor.

D: 305 cubic inches maximum (285 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with a 750 carburetor.

E: 300 cubic inch v6 (minimum 270), inline true wedge, 750 carburetor.

Cast iron oe supplied block, any oe supplied cylinder head, cast intake, steel connecting rods.

Nhra approved carburetors.

Clutchless transmission, maximum 5 forward speeds, 14"x32" tire, back half, fiberglass hood only, factory glass. For automatics, 150# weight break.

Pump for displacement, anything suspect comes apart. Any compression ratio, any valvetrain, any porting or polishing allowed.

double like!!

SStockDart · 03-28-2015, 07:16 PM

Wow.....lots of good posts. Don Kennedy, I agree, stock and superstock is not broken, except for the "no horsepower" for new cars. Very simply, if NHRA is ever going to allow a new eliminator, it absolutely has to be simple to administer........Newest categories, Top Dragster, Top Sportsman.......vertually no time necessary for NHRA to regulate. Safety check the cars.....top 16 or 32 qualify....must run within ? of qualification time.
I feel strongly about 2 categories of Modified Production.....first category (double AA, BB, etc), multiple carbs (no boosters).......14 inch tire. Second category, (single A, B, etc)....single carb, 9 inch tire...Where I seem to have a difference with some posts is the size of the carb changing with the class......I believe one size carb for the single carb cars....my preference is a 600 CFM....If you want to run A/MP with 500 inches, make it run with 600 CFM....(no real opponent of a 750 carb as long as it is 750 for all single carb cars)... We don't want to make it easy for competitors to run fast, they will have to work hard on the combinations......but we have to make it easy for NHRA tech to administer.

It goes like this.....OK, you want to run single carb Modified Production......easy to make horsepower (relatively speaking) with a 300 cube engine and 600 CFM carb......you want to run A/MP, much harder to make horsepower with a 600 CFM......Your choice.....\

Absolutely needs to run like Comp with CIC......resent the CIC periodically, and start from scratch.

EFI and turbos could be added later, depending of the success of Modified Production. But needs to be easy for NHRA.

Realistic, A tear down for a stocker.....cam lift, bore, stroke, carb measurements, wheel base, overhang, pull a piston with rod for weight and compliance, intake compliance, etc..... this 2 category Modified Production.....pump the engine, fuel check, measure carb, and 5 seconds to check tire size.

Good Luck

david ring · 03-28-2015, 07:16 PM

How are the proposed classes not like the super mod classes in comp? And any time it comes down to no break out and weight to cubic inches, it is going to get very expensive very fast.

Dick Butler · 03-28-2015, 09:50 PM

always impressed that many open minded people realize it might be better to get away from Third Handed HP ratings and easily manipulated AHFS and use Cubic Inchs for a Basic class.
THe econo Modified discussion in earlier posts indicated how to limit costs. No computer for eliminations, any flat top piston, Spec Brodix heads, Spec carb, Lb/cubic inch any SS chassis with any rods, any crank, No external vacuum, no external oil pump. Hole in pan to police. Stock placement of Dist. Spec spring and Cam size. Might even give wt break for regular chassis versus FWD chassis of 50#.
Take off headers to check heads, tech Carb, Check wt, and look in pan.Pump.
Easy tech.

03-26-2015, 09:36 PM	#2
Tony Corley Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 264 Likes: 42 Liked 61 Times in 25 Posts	Re: New Eliminator proposition I like the idea of new classes, but not the no E. F.I. It's time to come out if the dark ages, cars have not been produced with a carb in 20 years. If you want new blood in racing, you have to cater to what the new generations are accustomed to. Fuel Injection and no breakouts are something they understand. I agree to no power adders. If the NHRA really wants to attract new blood, have exciting sportsman racing, and keep costs somewhat reasonable, they should explore something similar to NMRA's Coyote Stock and NMCA LS Stock. Corporate bodies, stock type suspension, and factory sealed crate motors and tune ups. Comes down to chassis and driver. Very affordable, and factory involvement to boot.

03-26-2015, 11:23 PM	#3
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,139 Likes: 1,620 Liked 1,929 Times in 434 Posts	Re: New Eliminator proposition Make it really easy. Make all the cars weigh 3200# plus 170# for the driver. I'd skip the "two types of cars" to keep it simple. Everyone gets one (4150 series) carburetor and 14"x32" tires. Five single carburetor classes, five indexes. Easier to factor and police. A: 470 cubic inches maximum (440 minimum), canted valves, with a 1050 carburetor. B: 420 cubic inches maximum (390 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with an 950 carburetor. C: 360 cubic inches maximum (350 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with a 850 carburetor. D: 305 cubic inches maximum (285 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with a 750 carburetor. E: 300 cubic inch V6 (minimum 270), inline true wedge, 750 carburetor. Cast iron OE supplied block, any OE supplied cylinder head, cast intake, steel connecting rods. NHRA approved carburetors. Clutchless transmission, maximum 5 forward speeds, 14"x32" tire, back half, fiberglass hood only, factory glass. For automatics, 150# weight break. Pump for displacement, anything suspect comes apart. Any compression ratio, any valvetrain, any porting or polishing allowed. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

03-27-2015, 12:18 AM	#4
Todd Bailey Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houston Posts: 312 Likes: 31 Liked 33 Times in 17 Posts	Re: New Eliminator proposition From a year or so ago. http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...ied+eliminator I think it would be great

03-27-2015, 10:07 AM	#5
ss wannabee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 663 Likes: 0 Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Re: New Eliminator proposition Does Dick Butler know about this?

03-27-2015, 10:58 AM	#6
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: New Eliminator proposition I appreciate the alert to this. Seems there are several groups of people who like the idea of return to Modified for ease of tech. Some for lower costs if limited parts use. Refer to our posts regarding Econo Modified to get use of old SS cars with Brodix heads and very basic engine rule at LB/Cubic inchs. Bottom Line there are MANY reasons to create a basic, cheaper, less tech class. You will find many downplay the positives for fear of losing their current combinations and its advantages. (rule book created). A favorite fear is that money will dominate. If the class rule LIMITATIONS cut basic costs of Motor up front doesn't that count? as an advantage? No One will Have to race a cheaper class, No one would have to give up their Bogus Hp cars but when the factoring Hammer hits there could be a more level place to race based on skills too. Besides there would still be eliminator for bracket style points meets and Nationals but winning or improving on past performance by tune up or skills could become a goal again, to say nothing of friendly competitiveness. I do support a CHEAP SS class with basic Mod changes.... Last edited by Dick Butler; 03-27-2015 at 11:00 AM.

03-28-2015, 07:16 PM	#8
SStockDart VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Arizona, Texan forever Posts: 1,179 Likes: 881 Liked 606 Times in 213 Posts	Re: New Eliminator proposition Wow.....lots of good posts. Don Kennedy, I agree, stock and superstock is not broken, except for the "no horsepower" for new cars. Very simply, if NHRA is ever going to allow a new eliminator, it absolutely has to be simple to administer........Newest categories, Top Dragster, Top Sportsman.......vertually no time necessary for NHRA to regulate. Safety check the cars.....top 16 or 32 qualify....must run within ? of qualification time. I feel strongly about 2 categories of Modified Production.....first category (double AA, BB, etc), multiple carbs (no boosters).......14 inch tire. Second category, (single A, B, etc)....single carb, 9 inch tire...Where I seem to have a difference with some posts is the size of the carb changing with the class......I believe one size carb for the single carb cars....my preference is a 600 CFM....If you want to run A/MP with 500 inches, make it run with 600 CFM....(no real opponent of a 750 carb as long as it is 750 for all single carb cars)... We don't want to make it easy for competitors to run fast, they will have to work hard on the combinations......but we have to make it easy for NHRA tech to administer. It goes like this.....OK, you want to run single carb Modified Production......easy to make horsepower (relatively speaking) with a 300 cube engine and 600 CFM carb......you want to run A/MP, much harder to make horsepower with a 600 CFM......Your choice.....\ Absolutely needs to run like Comp with CIC......resent the CIC periodically, and start from scratch. EFI and turbos could be added later, depending of the success of Modified Production. But needs to be easy for NHRA. Realistic, A tear down for a stocker.....cam lift, bore, stroke, carb measurements, wheel base, overhang, pull a piston with rod for weight and compliance, intake compliance, etc..... this 2 category Modified Production.....pump the engine, fuel check, measure carb, and 5 seconds to check tire size. Good Luck __________________ Gary Hansen - SS/FA 4911, B/SA 4911

03-28-2015, 07:16 PM	#9
david ring Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Oneonta.,NY Posts: 889 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: New Eliminator proposition How are the proposed classes not like the super mod classes in comp? And any time it comes down to no break out and weight to cubic inches, it is going to get very expensive very fast.

03-28-2015, 09:50 PM	#10
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: New Eliminator proposition always impressed that many open minded people realize it might be better to get away from Third Handed HP ratings and easily manipulated AHFS and use Cubic Inchs for a Basic class. THe econo Modified discussion in earlier posts indicated how to limit costs. No computer for eliminations, any flat top piston, Spec Brodix heads, Spec carb, Lb/cubic inch any SS chassis with any rods, any crank, No external vacuum, no external oil pump. Hole in pan to police. Stock placement of Dist. Spec spring and Cam size. Might even give wt break for regular chassis versus FWD chassis of 50#. Take off headers to check heads, tech Carb, Check wt, and look in pan.Pump. Easy tech.