Schubeck lifters

[Mike Taylor 3601]

I agree if stock pressure spring rule was left alone in 87 wouldn't need tool steel,ceramic lifters and everything that came after that,was just putting out there the effects of not having the spring pressure to control the valvetrain, if you want to run the aggressive lobes and crank up the RPM then you have to have the spring pressure.
The stockers I build have plenty of spring pressure,they make more runs and require less maintenance than my pure stocker with stock spring pressure does,there valves,guides,spings,valve jobs will last twice as many runs as my pure stocker does..
Mike Taylor 3601

[Dwight Southerland]

Originally Posted by Mike Taylor 3601

The stockers I build have plenty of spring pressure,they make more runs and require less maintenance than my pure stocker with stock spring pressure does,there valves,guides,spings,valve jobs will last twice as many runs as my pure stocker does..
Mike Taylor 3601

Not to pick on you or be confrontive, but I raced a '67 Z28 Camaro on stock spec valve springs for four years, set three national records, won one national event, two points races, class at national events eleven times, logged over 300 runs, and broke one pushrod and one rocker arm. Shifted between 7000-7200 and cleared the lights at 7500. Then I raced an A-B/Stock 396-375 with stock valve springs for four years, set five national records, won class 13 times, quarter finals at three national events, and broke one retainer and shattered two keepers, shifting between 6800-7200 and 7400 in the lights. Before all that, I raced various 283-220 equipped rides with stock valve springs for six years, set umpteen records, won many races, logged over 1200 runs. Broke one retainer, one lifter while leaving the the starting line as high as 8300 rpm, shifting at 6800-7000 and at least 7000 in the lights. Then I raced an SS/C 427 Corvette that had Billy Badass valve springs, roller lifters, Jesel, etc. etc. In 87 runs I broke multiple lifters, pushrods, valve springs and rocker arms. Left the line at 7500, shifted between 7200 and 7600, and ran 8300 in the lights. So my experience tells me the obvious.

[Dan Fahey]

Hmmm interesting..
Moderating Spring Pressure is a good answer.
I like racing..not fixing broken stuff.
Using super high springs pressure creates larger catastrophic messes.

Someone mentioned they could not even get it off the Dyno.
Then required a new rotating assembly.

This does not happen anywhere often with Bracket Engines.

xHRA's need consider this.
Especially the RIO..
Fewer breakdowns during qualifying and competition.

D

[Bill Diehl]

If you have canted heads with 120+ gram valves and crooked pushrods you are going to need valve springs....you inline valve guys with tiny valves and straight pushrod geometry should never break a dam thing.

Its as simple as that

1 spring rule for everybody is not a cure all.... guys that race,.not bracket race the combo will always push the limit

watch how much "breakage" Prostock is going to have with a 10,500 rpm limit...should have left that alone also

[Mike Taylor 3601]

Dwight,
I didn't take your post as confrontation or picking on me.
Mike Taylor 3601

[Alan Roehrich]

Any race engine will occasionally break something.

However, if you're hurting stuff regularly, you're doing it wrong. Either you just aren't buying good enough parts, or you have a package that just doesn't work.

I'm no fan of Schubeck lifters, or any other ceramic lifter. However, I can tell you that of all the parts we have hurt, a Schubeck has never been what we in the automotive industry call the "primary failed part". Every time we've broken one, something else broke first.

Another thing I can tell you is that we've never hurt anything with too much spring pressure. But too little has caused a lot of issues, and that is not only in Stock engines, but even more so in Super Stock. If you have good quality parts, and your valvetrain system is well developed, it will be happy, and breakage will be very rare. If you have something in your system that isn't working with the other stuff, it won't be happy, and you'll have breakage.

I've seen a ton of failed parts in the pits, just from trying to help other racers with their problems. I will tell you that I have seen a lot of stuff that could have been prevented with proper preparation and better maintenance practices, and that especially applies to valvetrain.

We are rapidly phasing out the ceramic lifters, I doubt more than one more engine will use them. I'll be using about 99% Trend stuff for the flat tappet engines from here on out.

Stock has escalated far beyond what it really should have, there is no doubt, and no denying it. However, the genie is out of the bottle at this point. A new spring rule would be just another expensive rule that NHRA would have to police, and it will have far reaching consequences, that will create a host of problems of their own.

I know losing an engine is an expensive and painful thing, we've lost a few in the last 3-4 years. But I can honestly say that it was not due to the rules, and not due to ceramic lifters, either. If you were to do a serious study on it, while it might appear on the surface that ceramic lifters are a big problem, I'm betting in reality there will be a lot more parts with a lot higher rates of failure. We do not need a rule change, not one allowing roller lifters, and not one controlling spring pressure.

[Glenn Briglio]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Any race engine will occasionally break something.

However, if you're hurting stuff regularly, you're doing it wrong. Either you just aren't buying good enough parts, or you have a package that just doesn't work.

I'm no fan of Schubeck lifters, or any other ceramic lifter. However, I can tell you that of all the parts we have hurt, a Schubeck has never been what we in the automotive industry call the "primary failed part". Every time we've broken one, something else broke first.

Another thing I can tell you is that we've never hurt anything with too much spring pressure. But too little has caused a lot of issues, and that is not only in Stock engines, but even more so in Super Stock. If you have good quality parts, and your valvetrain system is well developed, it will be happy, and breakage will be very rare. If you have something in your system that isn't working with the other stuff, it won't be happy, and you'll have breakage.

I've seen a ton of failed parts in the pits, just from trying to help other racers with their problems. I will tell you that I have seen a lot of stuff that could have been prevented with proper preparation and better maintenance practices, and that especially applies to valvetrain.

We are rapidly phasing out the ceramic lifters, I doubt more than one more engine will use them. I'll be using about 99% Trend stuff for the flat tappet engines from here on out.

Stock has escalated far beyond what it really should have, there is no doubt, and no denying it. However, the genie is out of the bottle at this point. A new spring rule would be just another expensive rule that NHRA would have to police, and it will have far reaching consequences, that will create a host of problems of their own.

I know losing an engine is an expensive and painful thing, we've lost a few in the last 3-4 years. But I can honestly say that it was not due to the rules, and not due to ceramic lifters, either. If you were to do a serious study on it, while it might appear on the surface that ceramic lifters are a big problem, I'm betting in reality there will be a lot more parts with a lot higher rates of failure. We do not need a rule change, not one allowing roller lifters, and not one controlling spring pressure.

Well said. The broken lifter is usually the end product of something else failing first or not designed correctly for the application.

[Bruce Noland]

This is not always true. Some of these lifters were crap when they left the manufacturers. The Schubeck lifters that came apart last year were junk from the start but only two people knew that, Schubeck and Smith. Apparently, Joe had a ton of pucks all set up and received a batch of lifters with ID's that very a tad to big to get the correct press fit when installing the pucks. No problem. Joe had the remedy. Loctite! That's right he put a bunch of those lifters together with Loctite. I checked my broken lifters after hearing this bit of news and sure enough there was a flattened patch of Loctite inside. And from what I was told it's the closed pressure that presents the biggest problem for any lifter - no matter the brand.