Qualifying with no AHFS

Dick Butler · 03-02-2016, 03:53 PM

Diversity has become its own worst enemy in our Stk and SS classes now.
In the beginning when only 5 or ten motors were being developed by the racers it was a field of multiple same motored cars in a class.
Now with the massive variations in motors and the specialty companies able to produce Cams, rockers, ported heads, aftermarket heads or rods the available motor combinations is almost unending. Great that it is possible but makes the HP method the downfall.
What is needed might be classes of only Ford Mustangs with certain motors, Copo of same, Make the heads up the big deal. Formula ford, Formula VW were attempts and now sealed motors are used in round track and NMCA heads up chevy class.
( If there is an eliminator run with CIC off records or qualifying.)
Modified was THE way it could be handled. I know the scolding about Money will be used by isn't a $150,000 Stocker that is Supercharged an expensive piece?
If no one on this site HAD their current car and the new Mod classes were available as a level field of competition would we consider these? Would the field be more level across the field?
Nascar saw the writing on the wall LONG ago, Now there is a truck race, a major car set of races, All the same cars and the fans LOVE it.. Even INDY cars are standardized...

Bryan Worner · 03-05-2016, 10:38 AM

So all of you hardcore, go as fast as you can on every run guys, think about this. You go build a killer (soft) combination and are flying in Feb-April. You go 1.20 under and get an instant hit. You keep pounding on your combination all year long, then after the first review period, you get even more hp. So now you head to Indy, your biggest, most important race of the year, since you are a total performance guy. You thrash and thrash on your combo, only to qualify in the bottom half of the field, since you now carry 10-12 more hp than you did at the beginning of the season. Then, you go out and lose class eliminations (your Super Bowl) by a couple of hundredths or thousandths. How pissed off would you be? Or, better yet, you get to the late rounds of that same eliminator and get beat by a slim margin in a heads up race. Would you just say, oh well, that guy is faster than me, he must've worked hard on his stuff, back to the drawing board??? When, in reality, had you "taken care of" your combination all year long, you would've won those races easily.

This is not a bust on you hardcore performance racers, just something to think about. I love winning heads up runs and class eliminations as much as you do, but my main goal is to be taking home another big man at the end of the weekend!

So do we want to change the rules to give the "fast guy" the advantage again, or have the drivers win these races? I vote driver!

Dick Butler · 03-06-2016, 07:15 AM

Not sure how qualifying w/o, factoring affects the winning by a fast guy.,It would,seem to favor your "soft" car example instead. Then w/o ahfs you save your HP easier so your,advantage to qualify over guys who have to work harder to stay able to qual
? What about having to work hard AND out drive others? It is a performance class.

joe176 · 03-06-2016, 09:53 AM

Yes the discussion was no AHFS for qualifying ... Cannot get any combo hit ... Only in eliminations

As far as being the fast guy and a driver .. It has been proven that both can be accomplished ....... I won Atco divisional 2008 from the pole .... Never flagged the combo .. Just ran fast in qualifying and manipulated the car for eliminations to take the win round by round under the 1.00 trigger ... There is no hidden agenda about this idea .. It's the FUN factor ... No one should be threatened by this ... We build these cars for performance .. Don't We ??

Bryan Worner · 03-06-2016, 02:44 PM

I agree with what you are saying. My beating the c(s)ombo reply was for the guy(s) who think we should run them as fast as they can go every time. While Stock and SS are performance based, which can be shown in class eliminations, I believe that if you take away the AHFS during qualifying and class, nobody will ever get horsepower. Look how the new Fords and Chryslers have gotten so much hp since they were introduced. The only combos there that are still totally soft are the ones that have been protected, the rest are now in the ball park. So, take that away and have them introduce a new soft combo, they would never be given the hp they deserve.

Like I said, there are flaws to the system. The class average is one of them, but it has become a little more relevant now that FWD and RWD have been separated in GT. I believe if we keep tweaking the AHFS, it can work the way it is supposed to, but you will still not be able to run your car wide open all of the time and not get hp. I believe that is what you are looking for, like the old days when you could go 1.39 under at a LODRS race and be #1 and not get hp.

joe176 · 03-06-2016, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Worner

I agree with what you are saying. My beating the c(s)ombo reply was for the guy(s) who think we should run them as fast as they can go every time. While Stock and SS are performance based, which can be shown in class eliminations, I believe that if you take away the AHFS during qualifying and class, nobody will ever get horsepower. Look how the new Fords and Chryslers have gotten so much hp since they were introduced. The only combos there that are still totally soft are the ones that have been protected, the rest are now in the ball park. So, take that away and have them introduce a new soft combo, they would never be given the hp they deserve.

Like I said, there are flaws to the system. The class average is one of them, but it has become a little more relevant now that FWD and RWD have been separated in GT. I believe if we keep tweaking the AHFS, it can work the way it is supposed to, but you will still not be able to run your car wide open all of the time and not get hp. I believe that is what you are looking for, like the old days when you could go 1.39 under at a LODRS race and be #1 and not get hp.

You hit the nail on the head Bryan ... I agree ... The system does need fixing ...some new combos have already been factored into oblivion ..... And yes the old days were better for qualifying fun

03-05-2016, 10:38 AM	#2
Bryan Worner Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duncannon, PA Posts: 825 Likes: 138 Liked 535 Times in 86 Posts	Re: Qualifying with no AHFS So all of you hardcore, go as fast as you can on every run guys, think about this. You go build a killer (soft) combination and are flying in Feb-April. You go 1.20 under and get an instant hit. You keep pounding on your combination all year long, then after the first review period, you get even more hp. So now you head to Indy, your biggest, most important race of the year, since you are a total performance guy. You thrash and thrash on your combo, only to qualify in the bottom half of the field, since you now carry 10-12 more hp than you did at the beginning of the season. Then, you go out and lose class eliminations (your Super Bowl) by a couple of hundredths or thousandths. How pissed off would you be? Or, better yet, you get to the late rounds of that same eliminator and get beat by a slim margin in a heads up race. Would you just say, oh well, that guy is faster than me, he must've worked hard on his stuff, back to the drawing board??? When, in reality, had you "taken care of" your combination all year long, you would've won those races easily. This is not a bust on you hardcore performance racers, just something to think about. I love winning heads up runs and class eliminations as much as you do, but my main goal is to be taking home another big man at the end of the weekend! So do we want to change the rules to give the "fast guy" the advantage again, or have the drivers win these races? I vote driver!

03-06-2016, 07:15 AM	#3
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: Qualifying with no AHFS Not sure how qualifying w/o, factoring affects the winning by a fast guy.,It would,seem to favor your "soft" car example instead. Then w/o ahfs you save your HP easier so your,advantage to qualify over guys who have to work harder to stay able to qual ? What about having to work hard AND out drive others? It is a performance class.

03-06-2016, 09:53 AM	#4
joe176 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: NY Posts: 601 Likes: 36 Liked 41 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Qualifying with no AHFS Yes the discussion was no AHFS for qualifying ... Cannot get any combo hit ... Only in eliminations As far as being the fast guy and a driver .. It has been proven that both can be accomplished ....... I won Atco divisional 2008 from the pole .... Never flagged the combo .. Just ran fast in qualifying and manipulated the car for eliminations to take the win round by round under the 1.00 trigger ... There is no hidden agenda about this idea .. It's the FUN factor ... No one should be threatened by this ... We build these cars for performance .. Don't We ?? __________________ Joe Franco SS176 Last edited by joe176; 03-06-2016 at 10:02 AM.

03-06-2016, 02:44 PM	#5
Bryan Worner Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Duncannon, PA Posts: 825 Likes: 138 Liked 535 Times in 86 Posts	Re: Qualifying with no AHFS I agree with what you are saying. My beating the c(s)ombo reply was for the guy(s) who think we should run them as fast as they can go every time. While Stock and SS are performance based, which can be shown in class eliminations, I believe that if you take away the AHFS during qualifying and class, nobody will ever get horsepower. Look how the new Fords and Chryslers have gotten so much hp since they were introduced. The only combos there that are still totally soft are the ones that have been protected, the rest are now in the ball park. So, take that away and have them introduce a new soft combo, they would never be given the hp they deserve. Like I said, there are flaws to the system. The class average is one of them, but it has become a little more relevant now that FWD and RWD have been separated in GT. I believe if we keep tweaking the AHFS, it can work the way it is supposed to, but you will still not be able to run your car wide open all of the time and not get hp. I believe that is what you are looking for, like the old days when you could go 1.39 under at a LODRS race and be #1 and not get hp.

03-02-2016, 03:53 PM	#1
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: Qualifying with no AHFS Diversity has become its own worst enemy in our Stk and SS classes now. In the beginning when only 5 or ten motors were being developed by the racers it was a field of multiple same motored cars in a class. Now with the massive variations in motors and the specialty companies able to produce Cams, rockers, ported heads, aftermarket heads or rods the available motor combinations is almost unending. Great that it is possible but makes the HP method the downfall. What is needed might be classes of only Ford Mustangs with certain motors, Copo of same, Make the heads up the big deal. Formula ford, Formula VW were attempts and now sealed motors are used in round track and NMCA heads up chevy class. ( If there is an eliminator run with CIC off records or qualifying.) Modified was THE way it could be handled. I know the scolding about Money will be used by isn't a $150,000 Stocker that is Supercharged an expensive piece? If no one on this site HAD their current car and the new Mod classes were available as a level field of competition would we consider these? Would the field be more level across the field? Nascar saw the writing on the wall LONG ago, Now there is a truck race, a major car set of races, All the same cars and the fans LOVE it.. Even INDY cars are standardized...