.370 back to .400 Pro Tree

Tom Goldman · 12-11-2017, 01:49 PM

Boy ,you guys just love to stir the pot don't you.
Anybody that thinks this will help car counts is fooling themselves , this about helping themselves !
You want a .400- .500 tree ?...Well then lets go back to the incandescent lights as well . .....Then lets see who is still on the tree !
I've held this in for a long time ,many racers have just gotten lazy and no longer work at the tree or their car .. ....Instead ,they want to change the tree to get a better light .
Racers need to realize Racing , as in life is not always equal . ....what do you do in life ? you work harder ,try harder . ....Racing should be the same way.
Instead of building a car for the class ,you want NHRA to change the rules to suit your car.
There are times I have a hard time on the .370LED tree , Gee ,what should I do ? I know ,I'll demand they change something till I have a .00 light ! NOT !
I go back and change the shock settings ,tire pressure ,4-link ,add ballast ,change launch rpm .
AND if that doesn't do it ,well I guess I'll put the snorkel on and dive it in !
This is NHRA Championship racing ,you have to earn that Wally , It ain't no "participation trophy" !

Mbodnar · 12-11-2017, 11:10 PM

Couldn't agree more

Maverick · 12-12-2017, 01:04 AM

I have a issue with the stage loc, that NHRA has implemented. Very few racers know about it. To me it is not right to have the stage loc. I run a clutch car, and I roll in to stage. I don't have a button that lockes the transmission in forward and reverse, so it won't go forward. I believe the tree should be just like the pros. The prestage bulb does not have to be lit to get a green lite.

Tom Goldman · 12-12-2017, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick

I have a issue with the stage loc, that NHRA has implemented. Very few racers know about it. To me it is not right to have the stage loc. I run a clutch car, and I roll in to stage. I don't have a button that lockes the transmission in forward and reverse, so it won't go forward. I believe the tree should be just like the pros. The prestage bulb does not have to be lit to get a green lite.

Do you use the line lock and a brake pressure gauge to set enough brake drag to hold the car when staging?
That's what most clutch racers I know do and unless there is a problem with too little air gap, their cars usually stay rock solid on the line.
Stage Loc as I understand it only has to do with keeping the Staged light on if the car rolls slightly backward after the staging light is lit and locked in .

Maverick · 12-12-2017, 03:48 PM

Yes, I have a line loc, and a brake pressure gauge, and I roll in to the light. The car has to roll so I don't run a lot of pressure, due to the fact I want the car to roll . And when you lite the second bulb, and push in the clutch, the car still rolls a little after. Went red once this year due to the top bulb going out, why I don't know. I did not roll in deep, but the top bulb is out and I am red. The prestage lite intention is to warn you, that you are close to the stage beam. That was the original thought. But now you have people shallow staging, and if the roll back out of the stage lite, the timing system will keep the bulb lit so they don't red. So now you can roll back out of the stage lite, and not go red, due to not staging properly, but if you let the prestage go out, you go red. So know you have this fear of letting the top bulb go out, so you shallow stage, which some cars,you will have a higher reaction time. This is about the .370 lite versus the .4 lite. All I want is make it the same as the pros. They can let the top bulb go out, and they don't go red. It is part of there starting line strategy, if they want. It kinda of dumb, that you can roll back out of the stage lite, and the NHRA fixes it so you won't go red. But if you let the prestage go out, you go red. I know that is the way the rules are, but it is not right.

SST159 · 12-12-2017, 04:41 PM

Tom, I agree with your earlier comments 100%. My concern has always been, why is it when they make changes similar to this that no one is formally notified.
Maybe its me not paying attention however over the many years I have been pro tree .90 racing, I usually hear about these changes through the "grape vine". When I learned about this particular change (through the grape vine) I was in the middle of an event pulling my hair out trying to figure out is it me or the car. only to find out it was neither one. it was the tree change. Surprise Surprise!
When an association whether it be NHRA or whom ever advertises a .500 or .400 tree then it should be just that. If they change it for what ever reason then all members should be notified. (not through the vine)
Just saying.
PS, What tree does MASGA and MASSA use?

BKSG1198 · 12-13-2017, 08:48 AM

Drew,

We use a .400 & .500 Tree in MASGA & MASSA. Its always been one of those "touchy" subjects with the series and one I dread every time someone brings it up. I did a poll in the off season and let the members vote on what tree they wanted. Only member who were signed up for points in 2016 & 2017 were allowed to vote. Super Comp was a landslide 27-5 in favor of the .370 tree that we currently use but, Super Gas & Super Street were a practical split, so I went to E-Town D1 race and talked with some of the racers who voted for the .370 / .470 tree just to ask their thoughts. It was mixed just like this conversation is and the Facebook petition is. A lot of the racers said they were "Not Happy" that the tree is at .370 but, since NHRA is the only game in town besides the series (Now that IHRA is defunct and that was a .400 / .500 tree) and it's a wally to win they suck it up and roll the dice and attend because as stated before it's very hard to go bracket racing with one of these cars in the format they are in. When I asked the members who voted for the .400 / .500 tree what would happen if we went to a .370 / .470 tree in the series a lot of people told me that they would be looking to possibly go bracket racing or IHRA Racing (This is before they dropped the bombshell about no more sportsman racers). I had to make the choice to do what is going to keep cars coming to the .90 events so we stayed with a .400 / .500 tree. I can tell you I have racers who have told me they would come to more D1 races if it was a .400 / .500 tree, Unfortunately, I think the people who sold / quit .90 racing some 10 years ago won't run out and buy a new car if the tree changes. I know from conversations at my events people like Dave Harvey Jr. & Sr., Jimmy Young, Mike Lauria and a few others said they would come play and I think it's not about getting the old people back but, maybe introducing it to bracket racers who always wanted to try it out but, knew they wouldn't be competitive.

I think a lot of racers were mad because as Drew said it was changed in mid-season. Like I said, I remember going to Maple Grove for the LODRS and we couldn't hit the tree with a cannon that weekend and we thought "The rollout is screwed up or the beams are raised" so we went to Atco for the LODRS and was in the same boat so we changed Shocks, Four-Links, Bought new tires from Hoosier, Changed Air Pressure, etc over two weekends of racing and beat our head against the wall. We go to a MASGA Race the following weekend and Lucky comes over and says "What Tree do you guys want? We were like what are you talking about Lucky and he told us...Oh yeah they changed the tree to a .370 tree." I think if they just came out on January 1st, 20-- and said Press Release "Beginning in the 20-- racing season due to us changing over to the LED Bulbs we are changing to a Led Compensated .370 / .470 Pro Tree." This way people knew what the heck was going on. I mean I try to keep everyone informed as to whats going on with the .90 Series.

SST159 · 12-13-2017, 02:08 PM

Rob,
We too use the .500 tree for our NESSA program. No one ever complained or even brought it up that I can recall so I just let it be. Plus I think if we changed it to .470, we may loose a few cars that have been very successful foot braking on the pro tree. If it ain't broke I don't fix it. Your second paragraph explains exactly what I was getting at. Surprises are not acceptable when we all pay our membership and thousands of hard earned dollars to play. No matter when a change is made that would affect a racers performance, everyone should be notified before it is put in place. Imagine how many racers went home scratching their head. That's an expensive situation for all of us. I never complain much however that one really got me. Hell from what I understand the reason for the change was the Pro's not the sportsman. That being said why not just change the tree for the pros and leave the sportsman as it was. To me personally it makes little difference because I know my car really well (when it behaves) and have been fortunate enough to adjust back and fourth ever since they changed it so its easy for me. Others maybe not so much. As Tom said, each of us has to work hard at our race program to be even close to a winner and that is the way it should be as long as the organization plays in a level manner. Interesting to hear many different opinions which is why I like this forum.

tom1280sc · 12-19-2017, 12:45 PM

Just looked through NHRA 2018 rule book.
It still shows in section 9, page 1 for Super Gas, .4 second pro tree.
Also on page VIII, NHRA National Event Starting Line Pro Start System states .4 seconds between flash of yellow and the green. Since it is in the rule book already, and there is no amendment listed stating it is a miss-print and the .370 tree is correct, it must be a .4 tree. Why is there a need to "ask permission" to go back to the .4 tree ? NHRA needs to follow their rule book, to the letter like they require the racers to follow.

Maverick · 12-25-2017, 10:53 AM

I think nhra needs to take a vote, like they did a few years ago, on changing the indexs. I guess if you want to give everyone a chance, make it one second between the yelloe and the green, that way even the studebakers have a chance. I don't run a delay box, so if they add more time, I Will probably retire. I will not put a delay box, or throttle control box in my car.

12-11-2017, 01:49 PM	#1
Tom Goldman VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Allentown,PA Posts: 2,474 Likes: 885 Liked 859 Times in 234 Posts	Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree Boy ,you guys just love to stir the pot don't you. Anybody that thinks this will help car counts is fooling themselves , this about helping themselves ! You want a .400- .500 tree ?...Well then lets go back to the incandescent lights as well . .....Then lets see who is still on the tree ! I've held this in for a long time ,many racers have just gotten lazy and no longer work at the tree or their car .. ....Instead ,they want to change the tree to get a better light . Racers need to realize Racing , as in life is not always equal . ....what do you do in life ? you work harder ,try harder . ....Racing should be the same way. Instead of building a car for the class ,you want NHRA to change the rules to suit your car. There are times I have a hard time on the .370LED tree , Gee ,what should I do ? I know ,I'll demand they change something till I have a .00 light ! NOT ! I go back and change the shock settings ,tire pressure ,4-link ,add ballast ,change launch rpm . AND if that doesn't do it ,well I guess I'll put the snorkel on and dive it in ! This is NHRA Championship racing ,you have to earn that Wally , It ain't no "participation trophy" ! __________________ Tom Goldman 1500 SG , 1506 STK

12-11-2017, 11:10 PM	#2
Mbodnar Junior Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: South Brunswick, NJ Posts: 46 Likes: 7 Liked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree Couldn't agree more __________________ Class Racer Magazine Writer Super Comp A197

12-12-2017, 01:04 AM	#3
Maverick Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 299 Likes: 2 Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts	Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree I have a issue with the stage loc, that NHRA has implemented. Very few racers know about it. To me it is not right to have the stage loc. I run a clutch car, and I roll in to stage. I don't have a button that lockes the transmission in forward and reverse, so it won't go forward. I believe the tree should be just like the pros. The prestage bulb does not have to be lit to get a green lite.

12-12-2017, 03:48 PM	#5
Maverick Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 299 Likes: 2 Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts	Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree Yes, I have a line loc, and a brake pressure gauge, and I roll in to the light. The car has to roll so I don't run a lot of pressure, due to the fact I want the car to roll . And when you lite the second bulb, and push in the clutch, the car still rolls a little after. Went red once this year due to the top bulb going out, why I don't know. I did not roll in deep, but the top bulb is out and I am red. The prestage lite intention is to warn you, that you are close to the stage beam. That was the original thought. But now you have people shallow staging, and if the roll back out of the stage lite, the timing system will keep the bulb lit so they don't red. So now you can roll back out of the stage lite, and not go red, due to not staging properly, but if you let the prestage go out, you go red. So know you have this fear of letting the top bulb go out, so you shallow stage, which some cars,you will have a higher reaction time. This is about the .370 lite versus the .4 lite. All I want is make it the same as the pros. They can let the top bulb go out, and they don't go red. It is part of there starting line strategy, if they want. It kinda of dumb, that you can roll back out of the stage lite, and the NHRA fixes it so you won't go red. But if you let the prestage go out, you go red. I know that is the way the rules are, but it is not right.

12-12-2017, 04:41 PM	#6
SST159 Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 315 Likes: 5 Liked 20 Times in 16 Posts	Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree Tom, I agree with your earlier comments 100%. My concern has always been, why is it when they make changes similar to this that no one is formally notified. Maybe its me not paying attention however over the many years I have been pro tree .90 racing, I usually hear about these changes through the "grape vine". When I learned about this particular change (through the grape vine) I was in the middle of an event pulling my hair out trying to figure out is it me or the car. only to find out it was neither one. it was the tree change. Surprise Surprise! When an association whether it be NHRA or whom ever advertises a .500 or .400 tree then it should be just that. If they change it for what ever reason then all members should be notified. (not through the vine) Just saying. PS, What tree does MASGA and MASSA use? __________________ Drew Wonderly SST 159

12-13-2017, 08:48 AM	#7
BKSG1198 VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vineland, NJ Posts: 2,625 Likes: 96 Liked 1,283 Times in 392 Posts	Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree Drew, We use a .400 & .500 Tree in MASGA & MASSA. Its always been one of those "touchy" subjects with the series and one I dread every time someone brings it up. I did a poll in the off season and let the members vote on what tree they wanted. Only member who were signed up for points in 2016 & 2017 were allowed to vote. Super Comp was a landslide 27-5 in favor of the .370 tree that we currently use but, Super Gas & Super Street were a practical split, so I went to E-Town D1 race and talked with some of the racers who voted for the .370 / .470 tree just to ask their thoughts. It was mixed just like this conversation is and the Facebook petition is. A lot of the racers said they were "Not Happy" that the tree is at .370 but, since NHRA is the only game in town besides the series (Now that IHRA is defunct and that was a .400 / .500 tree) and it's a wally to win they suck it up and roll the dice and attend because as stated before it's very hard to go bracket racing with one of these cars in the format they are in. When I asked the members who voted for the .400 / .500 tree what would happen if we went to a .370 / .470 tree in the series a lot of people told me that they would be looking to possibly go bracket racing or IHRA Racing (This is before they dropped the bombshell about no more sportsman racers). I had to make the choice to do what is going to keep cars coming to the .90 events so we stayed with a .400 / .500 tree. I can tell you I have racers who have told me they would come to more D1 races if it was a .400 / .500 tree, Unfortunately, I think the people who sold / quit .90 racing some 10 years ago won't run out and buy a new car if the tree changes. I know from conversations at my events people like Dave Harvey Jr. & Sr., Jimmy Young, Mike Lauria and a few others said they would come play and I think it's not about getting the old people back but, maybe introducing it to bracket racers who always wanted to try it out but, knew they wouldn't be competitive. I think a lot of racers were mad because as Drew said it was changed in mid-season. Like I said, I remember going to Maple Grove for the LODRS and we couldn't hit the tree with a cannon that weekend and we thought "The rollout is screwed up or the beams are raised" so we went to Atco for the LODRS and was in the same boat so we changed Shocks, Four-Links, Bought new tires from Hoosier, Changed Air Pressure, etc over two weekends of racing and beat our head against the wall. We go to a MASGA Race the following weekend and Lucky comes over and says "What Tree do you guys want? We were like what are you talking about Lucky and he told us...Oh yeah they changed the tree to a .370 tree." I think if they just came out on January 1st, 20-- and said Press Release "Beginning in the 20-- racing season due to us changing over to the LED Bulbs we are changing to a Led Compensated .370 / .470 Pro Tree." This way people knew what the heck was going on. I mean I try to keep everyone informed as to whats going on with the .90 Series.

12-13-2017, 02:08 PM	#8
SST159 Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 315 Likes: 5 Liked 20 Times in 16 Posts	Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree Rob, We too use the .500 tree for our NESSA program. No one ever complained or even brought it up that I can recall so I just let it be. Plus I think if we changed it to .470, we may loose a few cars that have been very successful foot braking on the pro tree. If it ain't broke I don't fix it. Your second paragraph explains exactly what I was getting at. Surprises are not acceptable when we all pay our membership and thousands of hard earned dollars to play. No matter when a change is made that would affect a racers performance, everyone should be notified before it is put in place. Imagine how many racers went home scratching their head. That's an expensive situation for all of us. I never complain much however that one really got me. Hell from what I understand the reason for the change was the Pro's not the sportsman. That being said why not just change the tree for the pros and leave the sportsman as it was. To me personally it makes little difference because I know my car really well (when it behaves) and have been fortunate enough to adjust back and fourth ever since they changed it so its easy for me. Others maybe not so much. As Tom said, each of us has to work hard at our race program to be even close to a winner and that is the way it should be as long as the organization plays in a level manner. Interesting to hear many different opinions which is why I like this forum. __________________ Drew Wonderly SST 159

12-19-2017, 12:45 PM	#9
tom1280sc Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 32 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree Just looked through NHRA 2018 rule book. It still shows in section 9, page 1 for Super Gas, .4 second pro tree. Also on page VIII, NHRA National Event Starting Line Pro Start System states .4 seconds between flash of yellow and the green. Since it is in the rule book already, and there is no amendment listed stating it is a miss-print and the .370 tree is correct, it must be a .4 tree. Why is there a need to "ask permission" to go back to the .4 tree ? NHRA needs to follow their rule book, to the letter like they require the racers to follow.

12-25-2017, 10:53 AM	#10
Maverick Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 299 Likes: 2 Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts	Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree I think nhra needs to take a vote, like they did a few years ago, on changing the indexs. I guess if you want to give everyone a chance, make it one second between the yelloe and the green, that way even the studebakers have a chance. I don't run a delay box, so if they add more time, I Will probably retire. I will not put a delay box, or throttle control box in my car.