Jones Head - Racers Only

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by nhramnl

Sorry, but I have no idea what this means...

It means we were asked to list our name and comp. number.
It also means that I couldn't comment under those restrictions.

[SS3718]

I think this whole scenario comes down to two questions.

1. Should "engine builders" be allowed to have their own head approved?

2. Should a "porters" head be allowed?

I'm sure the answers to those questions could be debated forever. There are probably pros/cons to each.

Nick Morris
#3718

[TILBURG]

Originally Posted by Erik Jones

Sean.

Justin started this post for an open discussion for the topic of this cylinder head, I have done my best to stay professional thru this. To answer your question if i am doing an engine for Dominic the answer is yes. I gave him the same answer i gave you when you asked me to do an engine for you guys after Indy...."I'm a year and a half out" the only difference is Dominic said yes.

In my opinion the only reason you are against this being approved is because i am taking the advantage away that you think you have. Remember i stood right next to you in the barn at Indy with your cylinder head in your hand... I have been looking at cylinder heads for a long time and i know what i am looking at. NHRA can only police what is written down and what they can measure and we both know that. Now there is a casting that everyone can buy to start on a level playing field.

Tilburg,

Yesterday your comments showed that you didn't understand the way a cylinder was made and today you are talking about casting boxes.... The only thing i can say on that is if you think spark plug location and water jacket on an aluminum aftermarket head that has to end up 172 ccs makes a difference in how it runs then you are working in the wrong area.

I've done my best to answer legitimate questions without beating around the bush, this is a serious topic about someone who is trying to make your lives easier if you don't wan't that then that's fine with me. I have already contacted NHRA about changing the plug location and or removing the heads from the list. In the end my customers still get the best that i can do at that time regardless of what i start with. Judging from the 30 phone calls i received yesterday your implications are acknowledged, so let the cards fall where the may gentleman.

Erik,
I have never said anything bad about you or would I. That's not how I roll. I don't think you did anything with the casting that anyone else would have done. I commend you for wanting to take things to the next level. Don't think there is anything wrong with trying to think outside the box.
Guess I am just stubborn and trying not see it go where it would be going. Sorry.
If you think I care were you put the spark plug you are sadly mistaking me for someone else. I don't care if you put it under the valve cover.
No I'm not as smart as you I'm just trying to work with what God gave me.
God bless and have a nice day

[Dwight Southerland]

Although I am not a current SS competitor, I hope that the community will give me grace to weigh in on this issue.

First, there is nothing personal toward Eric Jones in my assessment of the problems and issues that have arisen in the decisions NHRA has made for replacement heads for the SBC.

There are so many issues that could be discussed due to the consequences of the acceptance of aftermarket heads for both Stock and Super Stock, but I want to address the specific problem of the angle plugs on the Edelbrock 60617 and 60947 heads and now the Jones Engineering head. The rule book specifically states “Grinding and polishing in combustion chamber permitted. Welding and/or applying epoxy in combustion chamber prohibited. Spark-plug hole must maintain the stock location, size, and angle as machined by the OEM; spark-plug adapters prohibited." Since none of the OEM cylinder heads that these heads are supposed to replace have angled spark plugs, then NHRA is violating its own rules and specifically giving favoritism to these parts. Many hours of testing by Chevrolet when the angle plug modification was developed for off-road use showed a significant power gain. Reputable and noted engine builders of the era when the angle plug heads were first released also verified that the modification increased power output over identical heads with straight spark plugs. The angled spark plugs is a modification that produces more power. However, no engine that Chevrolet produced for passenger car use from 1962 thru 1970 used cylinder heads that had angled spark plugs, which includes every engine in the Classification Guide and Technical Bulletins. And, Chevrolet never included in any of their parts books a service replacement for any of the engines of those years an angle plug cylinder head. In fact, Chevrolet has never listed an angle plug head as a service replacement for any first generation SBC of any year. The only two angle plug heads offered by Chevrolet, part numbers 336746 (casting 3991492) and 3965784 (casting 340292), were always listed as "off-road use". There is so much historical documentation that supports this fact that it almost is ridiculous to argue that there is a production precedent to allow an angle plug head on 1962-70 SBC engines. So, either NHRA’s rules don’t mean squat or the mentioned aftermarket heads should not be allowed as accepted replacements.

The argument “that ship has already sailed” is a lame excuse and does not mean the decision cannot be corrected. There are precedents where NHRA has corrected long standing use of parts by racers for the accuracy of the rule book.

If the rule for OEM spark plug placement can be ignored, what is necessary about any of the other rules concerning valve angle, valve placement in the combustion chamber or even port specs? The specs for those items are all based on OEM production just like the spark plug placement. But if one spec can be ignored, then why not all of them?

Several years ago, a noted big block Chevrolet racer developed an adapter that allowed the use of a small spark plug placed beneficially in the combustion chamber, but that was quickly shot down even though many racers were using them. Does that mean those adapters are now legal?

Could the Chrysler big block racers petition to have Edelbrock’s angle plug head accepted?

I could go on with many other examples that show that this one issue that comes from these decisions has consequences that can be avoided. It’s not like there are no replacement heads for these small block Chevrolets. Edelbrock already had two cylinder heads accepted that had straight plugs. Even Mr. Jones lists a straight plug head as one of his products.

Even to argue that these heads should have their own power rating is ludicrous in light of the violation of the rulebook. And that decision opens up another discussion about policy that we do not want to bring into this issue.

Please remove the angle plug heads from the accepted parts list for engines that were equipped OEM with straight plug heads.

[Sean Cour]

Originally Posted by Erik Jones

Sean.

Justin started this post for an open discussion for the topic of this cylinder head, I have done my best to stay professional thru this. To answer your question if i am doing an engine for Dominic the answer is yes. I gave him the same answer i gave you when you asked me to do an engine for you guys after Indy...."I'm a year and a half out" the only difference is Dominic said yes.

In my opinion the only reason you are against this being approved is because i am taking the advantage away that you think you have. Remember i stood right next to you in the barn at Indy with your cylinder head in your hand... I have been looking at cylinder heads for a long time and i know what i am looking at. NHRA can only police what is written down and what they can measure and we both know that. Now there is a casting that everyone can buy to start on a level playing field.

Tilburg,

Yesterday your comments showed that you didn't understand the way a cylinder was made and today you are talking about casting boxes.... The only thing i can say on that is if you think spark plug location and water jacket on an aluminum aftermarket head that has to end up 172 ccs makes a difference in how it runs then you are working in the wrong area.

I've done my best to answer legitimate questions without beating around the bush, this is a serious topic about someone who is trying to make your lives easier if you don't wan't that then that's fine with me. I have already contacted NHRA about changing the plug location and or removing the heads from the list. In the end my customers still get the best that i can do at that time regardless of what i start with. Judging from the 30 phone calls i received yesterday your implications are acknowledged, so let the cards fall where the may gentleman.

Erik, as you well know, I have the utmost respect for you. I have given numerous accolades to you and Larry about your performance and professionalism in the past, and continue. The "advantage" you claim I have, is something you cant just buy, and exploit when needed. John has worked his tail off, just like you. No part number there. I will continue to always feel I have an advantage, because I eat, sleep, and breathe super stock racing. Once again, no part number. I've expressed my concerns about this topic, as you know. I'm not going to debate on here about it. Other than Pandora's box has been opened, be careful what you all wish for.
As for Dominic, we made a business deal a while ago, and it hasnt been consumated in full. I'm sorry for dragging it into "your" thread.
Good luck, and I genuinely do wish you the best, concerning this topic.

[charlie westcott]

I am going to admit 2 things here,
1) A friend told me to look at this, cause I am working and dont spend many hours a day on classracer
2) I read to about the 2nd page and quit.

As a manufacturer of parts, some made from billet forms or steel and aluminum, and some using castings, I feel like I have a little knowledge on this subject.

Getting a part approved by NHRA for anything has always been pretty easy in my opinion. I have several pistons/rods approved, and went through the deal.
It took 2 phone calls, and a sample.

If you can buy a NEW nice head to make a race head out of, and not have to get some piece of junkyard crap, clean it, crack check it, weld it, hope it doesnt crack when it cools, etc. then why all the bitching?

Another thing is the parts I have approved werent made in my shop. I drew cad models and had people make them that were in that business, which may or may not be the way the others did it, but if you look at most of the approved parts, the guys that have their name on them didnt make them on their drill press.

If you want to get edelbrock, or dart, or me to make you a part so you can get it approved, then make the phone call.

I bought 2 sets of pro port FE heads a few years ago, they were real nice, although we never used them, that stuff is out there. If your engine combination doesnt allow good parts, then maybe you need to choose more wisely.

I do some business with EJ, and we talk about stuff pretty regularly, mostly cnc stuff. I actually called him because another guy thats on here with pretty strong opinions called me about machining some heads, so I called EJ and asked him why edlebrock doesnt make a pro-port sbc head. I guess he put the effort into it and got it done. The first I heard about it was a post on wastebook.

Its a free country, if you want to make a difference in the world, close your browser and get with the program.

cw

[nhramnl]

[QUOTE:]
If you can buy a NEW nice head to make a race head out of, and not have to get some piece of junkyard crap, clean it, crack check it, weld it, hope it doesnt crack when it cools, etc. then why all the bitching?

Umm, because this isn't Comp or Pro Stock?

[Alan Freese]

Might not be Comp or Pro Stock but I can tell you my Super Stock Modified motor is less money than a traditional Class or GT motor. Why is that??

[Allen Sherman]

As an engine builder and a racer I’ll put in my 2 cents. I’m personally all for the head Eric has gotten approved. The amount of hours welding and epoxying the castings we currently use isn’t very cost effective, and while I do know that’s why the costs are what they are I feel like this head being legal for use in super stock is nothing but a positive and as stated Eric sells them to anyone and they fit the rule of “generally available”. My biggest thing I keep seeing being brought up is the angle plug situation so here’s some insight that seems to have gotten missed. NHRA has allowed angle plug replacement heads for gm engines for MANY years but a lot of people missed this. Gm years ago produced an over the counter replacement head that could be bought at any gm parts supplier or dealership, there were 2 part numbers, one was a 492 and one was a 292 and they were available in an angle plug and have been accepted by NHRA for a long time. I’m sure Dwight could probably look back in some old tech bulletins and tell us exactly when they were first accepted. My point and opinion here is this, I think a head that is generally available and more user friendly to get to the finished product is a plus all the way around.

[Erik Jones]

As per the conversation i had with the NHRA tech dept this afternoon i have submitted a letter to rescind the approved head that is on the list as well as the straight plug and LT1 head that i submitted for approval. NHRA has done everything they said they would do and i would like to thank them for up holding their word and being a professional organization.

For those of you who agreed with what i was trying to do and had intelligent comments i want to thank you for your support. Hopefully in the near future this will change.

For the rest you... as charlie said you better close your browsers and get to work!