Wondering what stock racers think

[HawkBrosMav]

Please don't completely go off the rails on this one..

This is from a relatively newbie to the class (2009) before the AFHS how were the HP numbers regulated to keep things fair? If a guy went 1.3 under what happened? How were combos adjusted as to not allow one guys to find a super soft combo an out run everybody for eternity?

I for one agree the AFHS is very problematic and easily manipulated to maintain your combos competitiveness for class. It's also a stupid system that only punishes those who have found the most HP in their car. So it basically discourages us all from working to get faster and faster cause we we'll all then have to slow our stuff down so we don't have to add weight. I'm sure it hasn't been this way forever, but I haven't been involved long enough to know how it used to be...

I for one am all for something like this..

"Do away with the AHFS and Indexes as we know them.
All non-competitive combos get 15-20% HP reduction immediately.
At Indy, all Class Winners automatically qualify for the field, the rest of the 128 cars are furthest under the RECORD.
Class Winning ET BECOMES the RECORD. If no-one in Class, then previous record stands.
Following season (starting at the WinterNationals), the RECORD becomes the INDEX. The RECORD stands for 1 season (Winters to World Finals) but is set every year at Indy.
Anyone running under the RECORD at any NHRA sanctioned Event during the course of the year is subject to immediate tear-down AND HP hit."

[Nmbr1GMfan]

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

Yes and I watched it when it happened from the live broadcast. I guess the "GROOVE" just wasn't wide enough ! It will happen again to someone !

Lined up crooked and front wheels turned when it came off a wheelie resulting in a crash has little to do with the 9" tire. It was hooked up and on the bars even out of the groove.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by HawkBrosMav

I for one agree the AFHS is very problematic and easily manipulated to maintain your combos competitiveness for class. It's also a stupid system that only punishes those who have found the most HP in their car. So it basically discourages us all from working to get faster and faster cause we we'll all then have to slow our stuff down so we don't have to add weight. I'm sure it hasn't been this way forever, but I haven't been involved long enough to know how it used to be...

As bad as it is, the AHFS is much better than the system that we had. Under the old system, you were basically handed out 5 and 10 HP gifts by the NHRA inspectors whenever it was deemed necessary with no real system in place other that who went fast when and who your buddies were. But you also have to remember that the handicaps were figured off of the National Records and if you won but went a tenth under the Record, you lost. So it was still break-out racing.
My biggest issue with the AHFS is that the numbers can be manipulated too easily.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by HawkBrosMav

Please don't completely go off the rails on this one..

This is from a relatively newbie to the class (2009) before the AFHS how were the HP numbers regulated to keep things fair? If a guy went 1.3 under what happened? How were combos adjusted as to not allow one guys to find a super soft combo an out run everybody for eternity?

I for one agree the AFHS is very problematic and easily manipulated to maintain your combos competitiveness for class. It's also a stupid system that only punishes those who have found the most HP in their car. So it basically discourages us all from working to get faster and faster cause we we'll all then have to slow our stuff down so we don't have to add weight. I'm sure it hasn't been this way forever, but I haven't been involved long enough to know how it used to be...

I for one am all for something like this..

"Do away with the AHFS and Indexes as we know them.
All non-competitive combos get 15-20% HP reduction immediately.
At Indy, all Class Winners automatically qualify for the field, the rest of the 128 cars are furthest under the RECORD.
Class Winning ET BECOMES the RECORD. If no-one in Class, then previous record stands.
Following season (starting at the WinterNationals), the RECORD becomes the INDEX. The RECORD stands for 1 season (Winters to World Finals) but is set every year at Indy.
Anyone running under the RECORD at any NHRA sanctioned Event during the course of the year is subject to immediate tear-down AND HP hit."

What you're suggesting is just untenable.


Who decides what is "uncompetitive"? Because there's a lot of stuff out there that is being seriously sandbagged.


At Indy, you'd be rewarding people for searching for a single for class and avoiding a race.


And if you void the indexes, and run off records, what do you do where there's a "class minimum" instead of a record?


Who is going to tear down and tech all of these newly minted record holders?



If you start qualifying and racing off the record, your field will shrink dramatically, and rapidly.




Sorry, what you're suggesting just isn't viable, from the racers' side, or from NHRA's side.




Again, the simple solution, that doesn't keep anyone from qualifying because they can't run under a new indexes, is to leave the indexes alone. Just adjust at least the review trigger in the AHFS to a combination average of 1.00 under.


If you really wanted to increase performance as a factor, again, without reducing the indexes so that some who can currently qualify couldn't, is to start paying real money and real points for qualifying and for class eliminations.For those chasing money and championships, they're going to step up their performance, and maybe even move to a class with a few more cars. This will also drive the AHFS to correct combinations that are way soft, because people are going to try to take advantage of those in order to collect points and dollars.


By doing that, you substantially change only qualifying and class eliminations, while leaving regular eliminations changed only by the impact of a few people adjusting their class to score points and/or money. So people not able to run very far under still get to participate, they can qualify, and they can run the "dial in" eliminations.

[Billy Nees]

Ya know, the biggest trouble with Stock Eliminator and Drag Racing in general is, at some point within the last 15 or 20 years, it stopped being a sport and started being a hobby!

[fastlane]

A very good point is to give something for qualifying position, money, points towards something it would help with the sand bagging and give racers a reason to keep there cars as fast as they could be and it would improve the show overall.

[Jim Caughlin]

You start giving points for qualifying, I bet things would get interesting very quickly. Maybe 10 points for #1 down to 1 point for #10. Also, maybe a one time per year 10 points for a national record.

[fastlane]

Originally Posted by Jim Caughlin

You start giving points for qualifying, I bet things would get interesting very quickly. Maybe 10 points for #1 down to 1 point for #10. Also, maybe a one time per year 10 points for a national record.

Now things are starting to make sense at least for qualifying but how does all these ideas have anything to do with just dialing your number and trying to run it if you qualified 1.1 under or .25 under . It makes no difference.

[HawkBrosMav]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

What you're suggesting is just untenable.


Who decides what is "uncompetitive"? Because there's a lot of stuff out there that is being seriously sandbagged.


At Indy, you'd be rewarding people for searching for a single for class and avoiding a race.


And if you void the indexes, and run off records, what do you do where there's a "class minimum" instead of a record?


Who is going to tear down and tech all of these newly minted record holders?



If you start qualifying and racing off the record, your field will shrink dramatically, and rapidly.




Sorry, what you're suggesting just isn't viable, from the racers' side, or from NHRA's side.




Again, the simple solution, that doesn't keep anyone from qualifying because they can't run under a new indexes, is to leave the indexes alone. Just adjust at least the review trigger in the AHFS to a combination average of 1.00 under.


If you really wanted to increase performance as a factor, again, without reducing the indexes so that some who can currently qualify couldn't, is to start paying real money and real points for qualifying and for class eliminations.For those chasing money and championships, they're going to step up their performance, and maybe even move to a class with a few more cars. This will also drive the AHFS to correct combinations that are way soft, because people are going to try to take advantage of those in order to collect points and dollars.


By doing that, you substantially change only qualifying and class eliminations, while leaving regular eliminations changed only by the impact of a few people adjusting their class to score points and/or money. So people not able to run very far under still get to participate, they can qualify, and they can run the "dial in" eliminations.

The reason I posted that all in Italics was that it was quoted from a previous post.. I also agree there are some problems with the ideas in terms of logistically making it happen but the premise still stands AFHS is broken and maybe instead of minor changes like we have seen over the past 10-15 year, that have essentially amounted to nothing in terms of eliminating the problem, aren't working... Maybe we need to present and entirely new system and work with the powers at be to make it happen.. Maybe the AFHS can work if implemented in a completely different fashion.

Also, if you were running off the record the rule of dialing index would have to be revisited.. The record is the record for a reason.. its the fasted car in class at Indy(in the suggested changed) that means all but 1 guy that year can't run the index.. obviously requiring us to dial under the index at that point wouldn't work..

I've argued in the past that qualifying points would work.. I agree it will work to a point. More people would run harder to get those points.. but it would have to be a substantial amount of points or it wont change anything.. no one is going to blast their combo for 10 points one time to finish 250th in the points.. It's gotta be monetary to the point people could take that money and invest it in making up for the HP they just added to their combo..

[Alan Roehrich]

Well, I'm thinking 20 points for #1 down to maybe 2 points for #10, and $250 for #1, down to $50 for #5.


Twenty points per round for class, and $250 for a win (plus contingencies).


Two hundred points and $500 for a record, but you can only get it once per year. If you get performance into it on that level, and some publicity, you can pay contingency there, too, and/or get the sponsors to sweeten the purse.


If you start making performance pay in points and money, it drives parts sales, and that's going to get sponsors involved. They're going to want their decals on class winners and record holders, they're going to want pictures to advertise with, and performance to brag about. They'll probably be willing to support class eliminations at more, if not all national events, and possibly at division races. If you can make racers spend money to go fast, you can make sponsors pay for it, you just have to promote it.