Pontiacs

[NSSGTO]

I have considered building a late model GTO with a Pontiac Power Plant for a few years. The issue is the independent rear end. To get one of these to handle alot of power it will take some serious $$$$. Prices I had quote to do the cage and convert to either a 12 bolt or 9" came in around $7500. So you would have around $25K in just the roller.

[oldskool]

For you guys who won't race a GT car unless you can run more than a half sec under, you can quit reading this post now.

When I was racing, I never had enuff money to go as fast as I wanted to go, either in Stock or bracket. But, in bracket racing, we learned that you don't have to go quick, to win. You have cut consistently good lights & run consistent ET's.

Most Stock/SS racers really HATE it when you relate their chosen form of racing to bracket racing, in ANY way. BUT, IF your car is legal & can run it's index or a little quicker, then each round that is NOT a same-class heads-up race uses bracket race rules.

Since this IS true, no matter how many Class racers don't like it, any car that is legal & can run it's index can win any race, in which they don't have a heads-up run.

So, with this in mind, IF a guy really wants a GT car, but don't have the funds to build a high dollar car, he could run the '77 Pontiac 350 engine & get by with enuff car to run mid 11's.

That means that he would not need any more traction than a high 10 sec or low 11 sec Stocker would need. To me, that means that a decent low 11 sec Stock roller would be enuff car to run GT, with the 350P engine.

Or, if you had to, or wanted to, build from scratch, you wouldn't need any trick suspension. The basic leaf springs with Cal-Trac bars should work just fine. It appears to be working for Larry Maxwell, down into the 10.80's.

The '77 350, running in the lowest GT class, would require a min weight of 3500 + 170 driver weight. The '79 Bird is listed at just under 3500 with both a 403/auto & a 400/4-speed. So, one of these late 2nd gens should work great, as a GT/QA car, with an 11.75 index.

Brad Koivisto runs a half sec quicker than that easily, & has run some high tens, with his '74 350 GTO Stocker. IIRC, Mike Morgan has run below 10.50, with his '77 350 powered Bird

So, I'm thinkin that a real mild '77 SS 350 should easily run mid 11's, or slightly above, certainly quicker than 11.75.

Ya'll check my calculations. I could easily be wrong. How does this combo look for a low budget GT car ?

For those who don't think it would work, lets hear your recipe for a from-scratch low budget GT car.

Obviously, IF you can find a suitable & cheap roller that needs little, other than an engine & trans, then that might be cheaper, and a LOT less work, than building from scratch.

[john corcoran jr]

The only reason I ever thought of doing a late model GTO was a visit to my favorite chassis shop and he was parting one out. He used the eng/trans for a customer car and wanted the rear end for one of his projects. He told me it would be about 20k to convert to SS with 8.50 cage, 4 link, rear end, and fuel cell. I didn't go ahead on the project because I thought I should finish off another project instead. He still has the car but it needs more parts now. Needs front fascia, grille, one fender, rear fascia and rh quarter panel repair if anyone is interested.
Remember that when building a Pontiac motor, it will cost you the same regardless of engine size. My thought is that a mid seventies 455 would be a good choice when compared to similar year 400 motors. Yes I know the 428 with the Edelbrock heads has an even better hp rating but when did you last see a set of those heads for sale?

[oldskool]

"...My thought is that a mid seventies 455 would be a good choice when compared to similar year 400 motors..."


That's an interesting thought. I have eliminated all round port iron head engines, due to availability & cost. So, that leaves the '73-'74 D-port 455, as probably the best choice. Rated @ 310hp in GT/Auto.

They've been proven good in 10 sec Stockers. But right now, I can't think of a current car running one, in SS. Should easily run the index in a car that can hook it up. Now, as to how much power one can make, in SS form, I don't know.

When comparing them to 400's, I'd say they are a better choice over the '74 & '77-'78 400's, which are rated @ 290hp. Advantage of those '77-'78 400's is the common 6X head. Cores should be cheaper than any of the other good Pontiac heads.

Wilbert Thornton runs a '74 400 SS Bird. Jack Good now owns the '78 400 SS Bird that Ken Shawver once owned. The '74 & '77-'78 400's have been used by several GT racers.

The lowest rating for one of the early high compression 400's looks to be a '69 350hp GTO engine. It shows the same 310hp as the 455 we're talkin about. At the same hp rating, I'll choose the extra torque of the lower compression 455. Will require less rpm.

Art Peterson has the only '69 GTO SS car I know of running the '69 D-port 400 engine. Don't think it's an all-out car. Nice paint, but older technology. Roy, Mike, & Marty McKinney have ran a similar engine in their '68 Bird, for many years.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...My thought is that a mid seventies 455 would be a good choice when compared to similar year 400 motors..."


That's an interesting thought. I have eliminated all round port iron head engines, due to availability & cost. So, that leaves the '73-'74 D-port 455. Rated @ 310hp in GT/Auto.

They've been proven good in 10 sec Stockers. But right now, I can't think of a current car running one, in SS. Should easily run the index in a car that can hook it up. Now, as to how much power one can make, in SS form, I don't know.

When comparing them to 400's, I'd say they are a better choice over the '74 & '77-'78 400's, which are rated @ 290hp. Advantage of those '77-'78 400's is the common 6X head. Cores should be cheaper than any of the other good Pontiac heads.

Wilbert Thornton runs a '74 400 SS Bird. Jack Good now owns the '78 400 SS Bird that Ken Shawver once owned. The '74 & '77-'78 400's have been used by several GT racers.

The lowest rating for one of the early high compression 400's looks to be a '69 350hp GTO engine. It shows the same 310hp as the 455 we're talkin about. At the same hp rating, I'll choose the extra torque of the lower compression 455. Will require less rpm.

Art Peterson has the only '69 GTO SS car I know of running the '69 D-port 400 engine. Don't think it's an all-out car. Nice paint, but older technology. Roy, Mike, & Marty McKinney have ran a similar engine in their '68 Bird, for many years.

At most Nation events how far under their Index does one have to run to qualify?


Stan

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

At most Nation events how far under their Index does one have to run to qualify?


Stan

At MOST Natl. Events? You don't.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

At MOST Natl. Events? You don't.

At Indy this year, the bump spot was only .536 under, in Stock, & only .350 under, in SS.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2021#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2021#indextop

It has been said that many of the quicker cars did not go to Indy, for a variety of reasons.

I think there have been some years when you had to be nearly .900 under to make the 128 car field. I'll find one of those & post a link to it.

The Stock bump spot was .893 under, in '16 & '17.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2017#indextop

The '19 SS bump was .783 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

As Billy said, at MOST nat events, all cars that pass tech can run, no matter how slow.

That's how some really slow cars have won big races. They just didn't have a same-class heads-up round.

So, if you're trying to do some class racing on a small budget, you might wanna choose a class that does not usually have very many entrants, especially not any quick ones.

Sometimes you may be able to change classes up or down 1, by adding or removing weight, depending on car & class. This might help avoid a heads-up race with a quicker car, at a particular race.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by oldskool

" Advantage of those '77-'78 400's is the common 6X head.

THAT isn't the only advantage of the 6X head on the 400.....They have a very (very very) benevolent combustion chamber spec. ;-)

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by oldskool

So, with this in mind, IF a guy really wants a GT car, but don't have the funds to build a high dollar car, he could run the '77 Pontiac 350 engine & get by with enuff car to run mid 11's.

That means that he would not need any more traction than a high 10 sec or low 11 sec Stocker would need. To me, that means that a decent low 11 sec Stock roller would be enuff car to run GT, with the 350P engine.

.

I was the last one to race Tibor's 77 before he sold it in 2014.
I went 11.77 on the 12.70 L/SA index..
The way I see it, a single plane intake, healthy cam, trans brake ,and ditch the alternator...easy half second under SS car,...if that's your pleasure.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

I was the last one to race Tibor's 77 before he sold it in 2014.
I went 11.77 on the 12.70 L/SA index..
The way I see it, a single plane intake, healthy cam, trans brake ,and ditch the alternator...easy half second under SS car,...if that's your pleasure.

Yeah, that sounds reasonable to me.

I can remember a few Stockers running in SS, still in legal Stock form.Two I can remember right off were Lindy Lindholm, with his Stock Bird, before it was stolen, & Chris Stephenson with his '68 Bird.

IIRC, they weren't very far under the index, but enuff to have won, if they didn't have a heads-up round.

I'm guessing that most any of the mid 10 sec Pontiac Stockers could easily run their SS index, some without any changes at all.

The D/SA, E/SA, & G/SA Stockers would only need to run 1 sec under, to run their SS index.

And, as Mark said, with a few of the legal changes, it shouldn't be too hard to get a good Stocker quick enuff to run SS. And, since there are plenty of Stockers running low 10's & high 9's with only Cal-Trac bars & 9" slicks, that same set-up should be good enuff for a mid to low 10's SS car. Larry Maxwell is running high 10's with what appears to be a Stock type set-up, in his 350 powered '68 GT Bird.

Don't see a need for fancy high dollar suspension & big tires, unless you just have lots of money & wanna go quicker.