Stick Racers !!!

[oldskool]

Had posted some '68 stick Birds. Now I'll begin with a couple of '68 stick Goats.

#1 is the Stephens chrome nose '68 Goat.

#2 belonged to Adam Strang, who has been racing a '68 stick Bird now for several years.

While posting Goats, may as well post some '69's.

#3 is one of the '69 Stick cars, which is an Indy E/S class winner, driven by Dave Pruden.

#4 the orange Judge was a popular strip car, for a while after they came out. Nunzi was a partial sponsor of this D/S Judge.

#5 Garber Pontiac was big into racing, for a while. This E/S Judge had a strange paint job.

#6 How 'bout an orange SS/G Judge, named "Chief Justice" ?

#7 Looks like the owner of that car painted it black. I'm posting a pic because of the red headlights & wheels. Makes a pretty strange lookin Goat.

#8 The White bros had an E/S Judge.

#9 The "Packin Poncho" was a 4-speed '69 Judge, that ran SS mostly in AHRA & IHRA. We saw it run at the World Nats, in Amarillo, in '76, IIRC.

[oldskool]

Later in the '69 model year, you could get a Judge in colors besides orange(Carousel Red). The reason I didn't buy a Judge is because at the time I ordered my new Goat, orange was the ONLY color available. So, I ordered a silver Goat.

#1 pic is of a silver stick Judge. I suppose if I could have ordered a sliver Judge, this is how it would have looked. BUT, since I've seen pics of the other colors that became available, if I had been able to see a black Judge, that's the color I would have bought. But hey, that's all history now. Oh well, this is the "Nostalgia" section. So it's ALL history, I reckin.

#2 This '69 stick Goat is Silver/black. (fuzzy after enlarging) Lots of racers have sought sponsorship help to support their racing habit. Looks like this one is sponsored by a pizza/sandwich shop & a speed shop. Wish I'da had a pizza shop that would have given me free pizza. I LOVE PIZZA !

#3 Wonder how many young guys took their new Judge out to the strip & wrote goofy stuff on the sides, with shoe polish ? And that 12.12 ET on the windshield had to be bogus. The date on the pic was in 1969, & the car looks to have a street plate on the front. Guessing that a 12.12 would have been WELL below the nat record in '69.(Could be wrong) I remember that Truman Fields set a low 12 sec nat record for C/S, in the '73 Indy Stock final. But that was 4 years later. And, according to the "Ram Air" on the scoop, this Judge had the D-port engine, NOT the RAIV. I'll never know. But it would be interesting, to me, to know all the details of this car & it's performance.

#4 There were probably lots of Pontiac dealers that ran, or at least sponsored a Judge race car. Had to be good advertisement. This E/S Judge had Marson Pontiac on it.

#5 I THINK this pic is of the D/S class final @ Indy '69. A '67 Z-28 won, with a 12.24(If what I've read is true). As you can see, it looked to be well ahead of Big Iron, which was said to be one of the quickest '69 Goats at that time. But, right now, I have no idea what the nat record for D/S was, in '69.

#6 I have this Judge listed as belonging to Arnie Beswick. It has E-S on the window. So, maybe he ran Stock with it for a little while ? The pic is dated 1970.

#7 How 'bout if I close this post out with 3 '69 Bird stick Stockers. This one had a 350HO, & ran mid 12's. Guessing that was pretty good for F/S, in '69.

#8 Garber Pontiac ran a C/S '69 Bird. Assume it was RAIV powered.

#9 Stephens Pontiac ran an E/S '69 Bird. Assume it had the base D-port 400. Don't have any performance numbers for these last 2.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Later in the '69 model year, you could get a Judge in colors besides orange(Carousel Red). The reason I didn't buy a Judge is because at the time I ordered my new Goat, orange was the ONLY color available. So, I ordered a silver Goat.

#1 pic is of a silver stick Judge. I suppose if I could have ordered a sliver Judge, this is how it would have looked. BUT, since I've seen pics of the other colors that became available, if I had been able to see a black Judge, that's the color I would have bought. But hey, that's all history now. Oh well, this is the "Nostalgia" section. So it's ALL history, I reckin.

#2 This '69 stick Goat is Silver/black. (fuzzy after enlarging) Lots of racers have sought sponsorship help to support their racing habit. Looks like this one is sponsored by a pizza/sandwich shop & a speed shop. Wish I'da had a pizza shop that would have given me free pizza. I LOVE PIZZA !

#3 Wonder how many young guys took their new Judge out to the strip & wrote goofy stuff on the sides, with shoe polish ? And that 12.12 ET on the windshield had to be bogus. The date on the pic was in 1969, & the car looks to have a street plate on the front. Guessing that a 12.12 would have been WELL below the nat record in '69.(Could be wrong) I remember that Truman Fields set a low 12 sec nat record for C/S, in the '73 Indy Stock final. But that was 4 years later. And, according to the "Ram Air" on the scoop, this Judge had the D-port engine, NOT the RAIV. I'll never know. But it would be interesting, to me, to know all the details of this car & it's performance.

#4 There were probably lots of Pontiac dealers that ran, or at least sponsored a Judge race car. Had to be good advertisement. This E/S Judge had Marson Pontiac on it.

#5 I THINK this pic is of the D/S class final @ Indy '69. A '67 Z-28 won, with a 12.24(If what I've read is true). As you can see, it looked to be well ahead of Big Iron, which was said to be one of the quickest '69 Goats at that time. But, right now, I have no idea what the nat record for D/S was, in '69.

A couple thing about that picture.

1) Because of the angle it will make the gap look a little bigger that it is.

2) To me it looks like they are not that far down the track. In '69 there were no R/T or '60 times so we will never know, But if I had to guess I would say the Z-28 got off of the line quicker than the GTO.

I don't know what year the picture of "The Great 1" is but notice the 12.12 on the windshield.

Stan

[oldskool]

"...notice the 12.12 on the windshield..."


Yeah, I mentioned that.

Maybe that was the nat record, at that time, and NOT a dial-in for that car.

Didn't Stockers back then run off their class nat record, RATHER THAN dialing their own, with any time equal to, or quicker than an NHRA dictated "Index" ?

I know I've read about some racers having their record "bombed", at a track which had really good weather conditions at the time of the record run. When that happened, any cars running that class, which could NOT run the record time, or quicker, became non-competitive, instantly. So, I assume there were lots of cars retired from class racing, unless they could run the record or quicker, with another legal engine for that car.

I can see how the index system was a good thing to help the sport survive.

As for the nat records, I just read in the Jr. Stock book that all the old nat records were wiped out, for the beginning of the '72 season. With the new Pure Stock type rules, it appears as tho most of the higher class Stock records were in the 13's.

I suppose that's why Truman Fields was able to set a new record for C/S, in '73, without dipping into the 11's.

As soon as the Stock rules began once again to allow soft tires & headers, the records for the upper classes quickly dipped into the 11's. But, the index system was there to protect the slower cars, & allow then to remain competitive, even when somebody bombed their nat record. So, I stand by the statement that the index system saved Stock class racing.

I personally think the Stock rules have gone too far, with unlimited valve spring pressure & cam duration. Also, allowing the super high tech(& high cost) lightweight auto trans has increased the cost of building & maintaining a Stocker, that will have a chance in a majority of the heads-up runs it has.

To be able to win most of your Stock heads-up runs, you'll now have to run quicker than most Super Stockers did, back in the '70's.

It seems that when I think about this, the 1st thing that always comes to my mind is that the '74 SD455 T/A, raced by H-O Racing Specialties, set the SS/KA nat record @ 11.31, in '77.

Think of all the Pontiac powered Stockers that can now run quicker than that SD455 powered Super Stocker. A good comparison is Brad Burton's 455HO powered '72 Stocker, which has run well into the 10's, for several years now.

Stockers ain't been anywhere near "Stock", for a LONG time !

[DeuceCoupe]

On the 12.12 I bet that's it.

As of Oct 1969 the D/S=9.00 class record was exactly 12.12, set in Aug 1969 by Robertson's 67 Z28. What are the odds?

Charbonneau lowered it to 12.06 for E/S=9.00 in feb 1970.

On the cam duration, I often wonder why, even in the late 1960s when cheater regrinds became legal as long as they met "advertised" duration- instead of using that goofy standard, why not degree them to factory spec on teardown at .050 lobe? Ok most people didnt use that standard yet, but FoMoCo had used .100 lobe specs since 1957. The OEM's all knew those numbers, you had to know them to grind the OEM cam!

That's a lot easier to measure than "advertised", a lot more meaningful, and would have kept the cams a lot closer to true stock.

But that's all history too.

As it is, when Gonkulating these old NHRA combos, I have to try to guess about how much more .050 or .100 duration they could fit in a regrind and still meet spec for advertised duration, lift, and springs.

Agreed on "bombing" the record, although I guess that would only affect eliminations, not the class winner? I always correct for weather, just as important as altitude. Seems that could have been done to correct records back in the 1960s even. Of course even tail or headwind will affect trap MPH but that's hardly ever recorded.

[Stan Weiss]

Did you ever see this thread?


"Old School" Stocker Cams

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=75027

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I dug up some old data. This is the lifter raise for a Lunati sticker cam for a 302 Z28 from the mid '70s.Let me add that by the time I got to check the cam it was used.

Stan

A few things were done by Lunati. NHRA checked lobe lift. The Chevy cam used a valve lash of 0.030" By reducing the lash ramp height they were able to add both duration and lift. Also if you look at my original post you will also see a picture and how dwell was added at max lift.


Stan

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Did you ever see this thread?


"Old School" Stocker Cams

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=75027



A few things were done by Lunati. NHRA checked lobe lift. The Chevy cam used a valve lash of 0.030" By reducing the lash ramp height they were able to add both duration and lift. Also if you look at my original post you will also see a picture and how dwell was added at max lift.


Stan

Great thread thanks.

I thought the "stocker" (cheater) cams would have more duration at .050 though. Looking at the graph on pg8, it looks like the .050 duration is about (295-55)=240, which is actually less than the stock early Z28 duration of 254 at .050, right?

I get the idea, and that thread discussion confirms it - I just thought the graph would show fatter numbers at .050 and even .100 lobe.

[oldskool]

"..."bombing" the record...guess that would only affect eliminations, not the class winner?..."

Yeah, in class elims, the 1st car to the finish line wins, unless they tripped the red light. Don't matter how slow the cars are, at a particular race. They don't have to be capable of running anywhere near the nat record. They're only running against the other cars in their class, at that particular race.

BUT, once Stock elims begin, it was a different story. A car that couldn't run the nat record didn't really have much of a chance at a big race, where lots of the other cars could run their nat record & quicker.

That rule had to be changed for Stock racing to survive. Now, any legal car that can run it's index can win any race, as long as it don't have a heads-up race with a car in it's class.